6 ms·

> Left-leaning news media tends to use the terms woke and wokeness in the vicinity of terms such as bogeyman, trumpists, denigrate, deride, vilify, ridiculed, r

by msravi 4y ago

> Left-leaning news media tends to use the terms woke and wokeness in the vicinity of terms such as bogeyman, trumpists, denigrate, deride, vilify, ridiculed, reactionaries, pejorative, fearmongering, demagoguery, and racism. This has nothing to do with the actual meaning of the term "woke" - this only serves to say that the term is currently viewed as a pejorative term, a negative term. The left and the right don't "understand" it differently, as the article concludes. No, they aren't speaking different languages. The term is understood well enough, and is deliberately used so.

the_gastropod 4y ago
When pressed to define the term, Ron Desantis’s general counsel provided this definition: > the belief there are systemic injustices in American society and the need to address them So maybe the left and right do agree on its meaning! But much of the lizard-brained shrieking about it doesn’t usually seem all that related to the definition above.
- mpweiher 4y ago
  This sounds like selective and out-of-context quoting. Let's see. https://www.fox13news.com/news/what-does-woke-mean-gov-desantis-officials-answer-during-andrew-warren-trial https://www.fox13news.com/news/what-does-woke-mean-gov-desan... Yup. Let's see what he goes on to say: "To me, it means someone who believes that there are systemic injustices in the criminal justice system, and on that basis they can decline to fully enforce and uphold the law," And all this was in the context, specifically, of a legal battle around a suspension, so very much tailored to that situation. All in all, the meme that "woke is a made up term" is tiring, and no, it certainly doesn't just mean "there are systemic injustices". "You know personally I’ve been achingly specific about my critiques of social justice politics, but fine - no woke, it’s a “dogwhistle” for racism. (The term “dogwhistle” is a way for people to simply impute attitudes you don’t hold onto you, to make it easier to dismiss criticism, for the record.) But the same people say there’s no such thing as political correctness, and they also say identity politics is a bigoted term. So I’m kind of at a loss. Also, they propose sweeping changes to K-12 curricula, but you can’t call it CRT, even though the curricular documents specifically reference CRT, and if you do you’re an idiot and also you’re a racist cryptofascist. Also nobody (nobody!) ever advocated for defunding the police, and if they did it didn’t actually mean defunding the police. Seems to be a real resistance to simple, comprehensible terms around here. Serwer is a guy who constantly demands that he and his allies be allowed to do politics on easy mode, but he’s just part of a broader communal rejection of basic self-definition and comprehensible terms for this political tendency. Also if you say things they don’t like they might try to beat you up. Emphasis on try. If you ask these people, are you part of a social revolution?, they’ll loudly tell you yes! Yes they are! They’re going to shake society at its very foundations. Well, OK then -what do I call your movement? You reject every name that organically develops! I’ll use the name you pick, but you have to actually pick one. You can’t just bitch on Twitter every time someone tries to describe your political cohort, which again you yourself say intends to change the world. Name yourself or you will be named." https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/please-just-fucking-tell-me-what https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/please-just-fucking-tel...
  - the_gastropod 4y ago
    I'm unfamiliar with this meme that "woke" is a made-up term. It's absolutely not a made up term. It's a term in use since the 1930s by African Americans that largely matches the Desantis counsel definition above: there are systemic injustices, and they should be recognized and addressed. Its _definition_ (or lack thereof) when used as a derogatory term by conservatives complaining about all manner of things is what's often criticized (and memed) by the left. Your follow up examples, I think, corroborate this point. It's basically word-salad with no clear definition. Is it political correctness? Identity politics? CRT? Defund the police? (all things conservatives also tend to be unable to define). Is it an incitement to revolution? To shake (destroy?) the foundation of society? This deliberate obtuseness is by design, and you see it in this rant: to paint people who'd like to make society slightly better as radical reactionaries wanting to level society. It's obviously ridiculous and would be funny if it weren't so frighteningly effective at scaring the shit out of otherwise intelligent people. (Edited to add: another major problem I've noticed when talking about these things is conservatives tend to treat random Twitter users as representing some monolithic "the left", rather than some random dipshits on Twitter, whereas progressives tend to treat elected conservative politicians in-power as "the right" when criticizing them (e.g., referencing Ron Desantis instead of "they" or "these people", talking about people on Twitter).
    - mpweiher 4y ago
      > unfamiliar with this meme that "woke" is a made-up term. Weird. It's all over the place. For example: "Now, he was preparing his constituents for the existential battle posed by their newest imaginary adversary: wokeness." https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/dec/20/anti-woke-race-america-history https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/dec/20/anti-woke-ra... > Your follow up examples, I think, corroborate this point. Nope. It (it's a single quote) makes it clear that those on the woke far left are playing silly word games. > It's obviously ridiculous True, the word games are ridiculous and pretty transparent once you see how they work (usually a simple variant of the Motte-and-Bailey fallacy). Anyway, good chat.
      - the_gastropod 4y ago
ashwagary 4y ago
>The term is understood well enough, and is deliberately used so. Many in the ruling class have a huge incentive to make sure the masses stay asleep. The original definition of wokeness was too destabilizing to the established order thus, like any threat, money printers are working overtime to put this one down. >If Firth’s hypothesis is correct, and it probably is, red and blue America have very different ideas in mind when they use the terms woke/wokeness. Close observers can clearly see the counterwoke movement is astroturfing with a top down structure and the corruption of the definition isnt a mistake. Some of the most woke people I know fall on the right side of the spectrum but have been sufficiently convinced to distance themselves from the term.

by msravi 4y ago

the_gastropod 4y ago

When pressed to define the term, Ron Desantis’s general counsel provided this definition: > the belief there are systemic injustices in American society and the need to address them So maybe the left and right do agree on its meaning! But much of the lizard-brained shrieking about it doesn’t usually seem all that related to the definition above.

mpweiher 4y ago
This sounds like selective and out-of-context quoting. Let's see. https://www.fox13news.com/news/what-does-woke-mean-gov-desantis-officials-answer-during-andrew-warren-trial https://www.fox13news.com/news/what-does-woke-mean-gov-desan... Yup. Let's see what he goes on to say: "To me, it means someone who believes that there are systemic injustices in the criminal justice system, and on that basis they can decline to fully enforce and uphold the law," And all this was in the context, specifically, of a legal battle around a suspension, so very much tailored to that situation. All in all, the meme that "woke is a made up term" is tiring, and no, it certainly doesn't just mean "there are systemic injustices". "You know personally I’ve been achingly specific about my critiques of social justice politics, but fine - no woke, it’s a “dogwhistle” for racism. (The term “dogwhistle” is a way for people to simply impute attitudes you don’t hold onto you, to make it easier to dismiss criticism, for the record.) But the same people say there’s no such thing as political correctness, and they also say identity politics is a bigoted term. So I’m kind of at a loss. Also, they propose sweeping changes to K-12 curricula, but you can’t call it CRT, even though the curricular documents specifically reference CRT, and if you do you’re an idiot and also you’re a racist cryptofascist. Also nobody (nobody!) ever advocated for defunding the police, and if they did it didn’t actually mean defunding the police. Seems to be a real resistance to simple, comprehensible terms around here. Serwer is a guy who constantly demands that he and his allies be allowed to do politics on easy mode, but he’s just part of a broader communal rejection of basic self-definition and comprehensible terms for this political tendency. Also if you say things they don’t like they might try to beat you up. Emphasis on try. If you ask these people, are you part of a social revolution?, they’ll loudly tell you yes! Yes they are! They’re going to shake society at its very foundations. Well, OK then -what do I call your movement? You reject every name that organically develops! I’ll use the name you pick, but you have to actually pick one. You can’t just bitch on Twitter every time someone tries to describe your political cohort, which again you yourself say intends to change the world. Name yourself or you will be named." https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/please-just-fucking-tell-me-what https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/please-just-fucking-tel...
- the_gastropod 4y ago
  I'm unfamiliar with this meme that "woke" is a made-up term. It's absolutely not a made up term. It's a term in use since the 1930s by African Americans that largely matches the Desantis counsel definition above: there are systemic injustices, and they should be recognized and addressed. Its _definition_ (or lack thereof) when used as a derogatory term by conservatives complaining about all manner of things is what's often criticized (and memed) by the left. Your follow up examples, I think, corroborate this point. It's basically word-salad with no clear definition. Is it political correctness? Identity politics? CRT? Defund the police? (all things conservatives also tend to be unable to define). Is it an incitement to revolution? To shake (destroy?) the foundation of society? This deliberate obtuseness is by design, and you see it in this rant: to paint people who'd like to make society slightly better as radical reactionaries wanting to level society. It's obviously ridiculous and would be funny if it weren't so frighteningly effective at scaring the shit out of otherwise intelligent people. (Edited to add: another major problem I've noticed when talking about these things is conservatives tend to treat random Twitter users as representing some monolithic "the left", rather than some random dipshits on Twitter, whereas progressives tend to treat elected conservative politicians in-power as "the right" when criticizing them (e.g., referencing Ron Desantis instead of "they" or "these people", talking about people on Twitter).
  - mpweiher 4y ago
    > unfamiliar with this meme that "woke" is a made-up term. Weird. It's all over the place. For example: "Now, he was preparing his constituents for the existential battle posed by their newest imaginary adversary: wokeness." https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/dec/20/anti-woke-race-america-history https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/dec/20/anti-woke-ra... > Your follow up examples, I think, corroborate this point. Nope. It (it's a single quote) makes it clear that those on the woke far left are playing silly word games. > It's obviously ridiculous True, the word games are ridiculous and pretty transparent once you see how they work (usually a simple variant of the Motte-and-Bailey fallacy). Anyway, good chat.
    - the_gastropod 4y ago

ashwagary 4y ago

>The term is understood well enough, and is deliberately used so. Many in the ruling class have a huge incentive to make sure the masses stay asleep. The original definition of wokeness was too destabilizing to the established order thus, like any threat, money printers are working overtime to put this one down. >If Firth’s hypothesis is correct, and it probably is, red and blue America have very different ideas in mind when they use the terms woke/wokeness. Close observers can clearly see the counterwoke movement is astroturfing with a top down structure and the corruption of the definition isnt a mistake. Some of the most woke people I know fall on the right side of the spectrum but have been sufficiently convinced to distance themselves from the term.