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I live in US and I might be a little biased, because I have cops in my extended family and my parents were friends with local sheriff equivalent in the old coun

I live in US and I might be a little biased, because I have cops in my extended family and my parents were friends with local sheriff equivalent in the old country. In short, I agree with you. It is unreasonable to claim to that there are no issues ( and maybe even systemic issues ), but it is also unreasonable to claim that there is no such thing as a good cop. Cops are just people and people respond to the environment they are in. I think parent may exaggerating for brevity ( or at least I hope so ). The solution is what it has always been, correct to the extent that you can until you get what you want in terms of results. Naturally, this line of thinking opens rather uncomfortable set of questions, because: What if the system works as intended given current incentives? And that is a hard question I have no idea how to answer.

tehwebguy 4y ago
One question I consider: is a cop that never violates anyone’s civil rights, but also does nothing when their coworkers do, considered a good cop? For instance, are there any good cops in Louisville? Any good state cops in Kentucky? Seems to me they would’ve done something, anything, about the Breonna Taylor case instead of waiting for the feds to come in. There were even active coverups, Kentucky’s Attorney General went to great lengths to push the idea that the entire thing was perfectly legal! Edit: and maybe the federal charges are to some extent the result of an actual good cop in KY blowing a whistle, hopefully we’ll know someday
- hooverd 4y ago
  There are bad cops, and cops who choose to look away, and I'm sure these are all perfectly wonderful people off the clock, but my example of a good cop is Adrian Schoolcraft and look what they did to him.
- anonymousiam 4y ago
  It depends on what a cop does when he sees misconduct by others. Christopher Dorner reported misconduct, but was ostracized afterward. He sought justice in his own way afterward: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dorner_shootings_and_manhunt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dorner_shootings_a... Not really relevant, but the ridiculous (and secret) police response once they knew they were being targeted had bad consequences for others too. I have a house near where this multi-agency incident (links below) occurred and there was so much gunfire for such a long period that I knew it had to be cops doing the shooting. https://www.kpcc.org/2014-01-15/la-district-attorney-torrance-cop-who-fired-at-wro https://www.kpcc.org/2014-01-15/la-district-attorney-torranc... https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-no-charges-lapd-shooting-newspaper-delivery-women-dorner-manhunt-20160127-story.html https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-no-charges-lapd...
  - stametseater 4y ago
    Dorner murdered two people who had nothing to do with the LAPD. One was a campus security guard at the University of South Carolina and the other wasn't any sort of cop at all, she was a basketball coach. Even if you believe all of Dorner's allegations against the LAPD, Dorner was still a mass murdering psychopath who targeted and murdering innocent people. In light of that, why would you believe any of his allegations in the first place? Hero worship of Dorner is an insane 4chanism, shame on you. Dorner was nothing more than another murderous cop.
    - anonymousiam 4y ago
      I'm pretty sure that I did not express any sympathy or support for what Dorner did in my post. I do believe though that it's more likely than not that the excessive force he reported actually occurred. His record up to that point was exemplary. After he snapped, his murderous rage was not typical behavior for law enforcement, but it is a fact that psychopathy is far more prevalent in police officers than in the general population. One could argue about whether this is because psychos are drawn to the police profession, or that the nature of the work the police do causes mental problems. https://academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1166&context=jj_etds https://academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1...
      - stametseater 4y ago
        > He sought justice in his own way afterward: There was no justice in it. You're also taking for granted that the misjustice he claimed to have seen actually happened. Taking seriously the word of a man we know murdered innocent people.
        anonymousiam 4y ago
        I'm not taking anyone's word for anything. I'm just speculating at what triggered him and why. He obviously believed that he was wronged when the report he filed was dismissed, and he was subsequently fired. If he filed a false report, then he deserved to get fired. If he filed an accurate report, and the (documented) culture of corruption among LAPD conspired to discredit him (and destroy his life), he may have felt that his actions were justified. Again, you need to stop confusing my analysis for support and sympathy for Dorner. He obviously exhibited some mental problems and very poor judgement, but stressful conditions can do that to otherwise good people: https://futuresrecoveryhealthcare.com/blog/psychotic-break-vs-nervous-breakdown/ https://futuresrecoveryhealthcare.com/blog/psychotic-break-v...
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  << One question I consider: is a cop that never violates anyone’s civil rights, but also does nothing when their coworkers do, considered a good cop? It is not a bad question to ask. Lets do what lawyers do: change one fact and see how it affects the case at hand. Issue at hand is bad behavior of individuals in a group. Is individual guilty of actions committed by other individuals while being part of that group? I suppose it depends. Is a random US citizen guilty of actions of their politicians? Is a random US citizen guilty of actions of their sheriffs? Is a random US citizen guilty of actions of their neighbors? Is a random US citizen guilty of actions of their partners? Is a random US citizen guilty of actions of their kids? I have problem with either of those despite seeing clearly what you are getting at. Starting from the bottom, I have a problem with 'sins of the father' justification all the way to the politician. I see an abstract reasoning that can take us to 'yes, inaction is a choice too', but is it in the same category? Does it even have the same weight? << There were even active coverups, Kentucky’s Attorney General went to great lengths to push the idea that the entire thing was perfectly legal! Chicago is not better. Some stories are heart-wrenching and, as I stated before, I would not be able to be a cop just based on those alone, but I personally think you are trying to spread sin way too thin, which, contrary to what you think you are doing, is only distributing accountability even further and alienate even those, who could reasonably agree with you otherwise. In very simple terms, if you are gonna define me as bad apple anyway by association only, I might as well stick to my tribe, where at least I will have some level of protection from the outside. And that, I think, is the true problem.
themitigating 4y ago
Do you think it's difficult to consider the cops in family might be bad? It's not like they are going to tell you the horrible things they may have done. You think the cops in your family are good because they are in your family and are nice to you. That's probably the extent of the details about their job you know
- deadly_syn 4y ago
  This sounds like mental gymnastics at this point. "Have you considered the average hn user is a rapist, of course they deny it and they dont talk about it. You think HN users are good because theyre nice to you!" Im as anti-authoritarian as they come, but I really dont like hyperbolic arguments.
  - SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
    I think pointing out “I have cops in my family, therefore there are good cops” is inherently poor counterpoint because obviously the cops aren’t going to admit to wrongdoings to civilians (although the poster didn’t mention any domestic violence happens in the home, which is shockingly high in cop families…) is not mental gymnastics.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
      <<“I have cops in my family, therefore there are good cops” I apologize. This is not what I intended to convey. That line was intended more as disclaimer ("hey. i am not completely objective here"). My actual argument follows beneath ("cops are just humans").
  - tracker1 4y ago
    Agreed, I think it was an honest disclosure that one obviously may have bias, but also that one might have more exposure to police than most. My dad spent about a decade as an undercover narc, some pretty interesting stories, including when he had to deal with police while undercover. Getting pulled over leaving a bar on the way to a buy, with gun and badge in motorcycle roll. "I'm not unrolling that..." to prove he was who he said, "I think my boss would be more upset about dropping a buy than me blowing over on an alcohol test." Or, getting caught in the middle of a shootout between the Feds and a biker gang. Edit: My dad also quit two positions along the way, one because his boss was a clear racist, and another that had some other issues in the dept. My mom was a dispatcher, and when retired was head of combined dispatch for a region. She mostly dealt with people in trouble, distress, or sometimes the absurd.
banannaise 4y ago
I think you're overextending the context of "cop". A cop ceases to be a cop when they take off the uniform. They can be perfectly nice people in outside life (although they can also not) but when the uniform goes on, they're contributors to a system of abuse. "No good cops" does not mean good people don't go into policing. It means that those who insist on trying to meaningfully change the system get forced out, leaving only those who contribute to it.
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  In recent cases, off duty cops have shot strangers and benefited from the incestuous cop dynamic and been protected from any consequences, so no, even when they take off the uniform, they are still a cop. There will never be a good cop until accountability is an actual thing in policing. Even a "justified" shooting by a cop should be considered a horrific failure of process.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
    << Even a "justified" shooting by a cop should be considered a horrific failure of process. I think this is where we might disagree. I can't comment for other countries. I can comment a little about Chicagoland. If there is a failure, it is not the failure of the process ( here understood as policing ). At this point, 'justified shooting' is merely what I would classify as 'necessary violence'. I am not using that word lightly, because actual violence only creates problems. It is the failure of: 1. Society that allowed a given issue to fester long enough to move beyond tension 2. Individuals' environment that contributed to it 3. Individuals' family and fiends 4. The individual Police merely deals with the aftermath. I think you got it wrong.

tehwebguy 4y ago

One question I consider: is a cop that never violates anyone’s civil rights, but also does nothing when their coworkers do, considered a good cop? For instance, are there any good cops in Louisville? Any good state cops in Kentucky? Seems to me they would’ve done something, anything, about the Breonna Taylor case instead of waiting for the feds to come in. There were even active coverups, Kentucky’s Attorney General went to great lengths to push the idea that the entire thing was perfectly legal! Edit: and maybe the federal charges are to some extent the result of an actual good cop in KY blowing a whistle, hopefully we’ll know someday

hooverd 4y ago
There are bad cops, and cops who choose to look away, and I'm sure these are all perfectly wonderful people off the clock, but my example of a good cop is Adrian Schoolcraft and look what they did to him.
anonymousiam 4y ago
It depends on what a cop does when he sees misconduct by others. Christopher Dorner reported misconduct, but was ostracized afterward. He sought justice in his own way afterward: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dorner_shootings_and_manhunt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dorner_shootings_a... Not really relevant, but the ridiculous (and secret) police response once they knew they were being targeted had bad consequences for others too. I have a house near where this multi-agency incident (links below) occurred and there was so much gunfire for such a long period that I knew it had to be cops doing the shooting. https://www.kpcc.org/2014-01-15/la-district-attorney-torrance-cop-who-fired-at-wro https://www.kpcc.org/2014-01-15/la-district-attorney-torranc... https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-no-charges-lapd-shooting-newspaper-delivery-women-dorner-manhunt-20160127-story.html https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-no-charges-lapd...
- stametseater 4y ago
  Dorner murdered two people who had nothing to do with the LAPD. One was a campus security guard at the University of South Carolina and the other wasn't any sort of cop at all, she was a basketball coach. Even if you believe all of Dorner's allegations against the LAPD, Dorner was still a mass murdering psychopath who targeted and murdering innocent people. In light of that, why would you believe any of his allegations in the first place? Hero worship of Dorner is an insane 4chanism, shame on you. Dorner was nothing more than another murderous cop.
  - anonymousiam 4y ago
    I'm pretty sure that I did not express any sympathy or support for what Dorner did in my post. I do believe though that it's more likely than not that the excessive force he reported actually occurred. His record up to that point was exemplary. After he snapped, his murderous rage was not typical behavior for law enforcement, but it is a fact that psychopathy is far more prevalent in police officers than in the general population. One could argue about whether this is because psychos are drawn to the police profession, or that the nature of the work the police do causes mental problems. https://academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1166&context=jj_etds https://academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1...
    - stametseater 4y ago
      > He sought justice in his own way afterward: There was no justice in it. You're also taking for granted that the misjustice he claimed to have seen actually happened. Taking seriously the word of a man we know murdered innocent people.
      - anonymousiam 4y ago
        I'm not taking anyone's word for anything. I'm just speculating at what triggered him and why. He obviously believed that he was wronged when the report he filed was dismissed, and he was subsequently fired. If he filed a false report, then he deserved to get fired. If he filed an accurate report, and the (documented) culture of corruption among LAPD conspired to discredit him (and destroy his life), he may have felt that his actions were justified. Again, you need to stop confusing my analysis for support and sympathy for Dorner. He obviously exhibited some mental problems and very poor judgement, but stressful conditions can do that to otherwise good people: https://futuresrecoveryhealthcare.com/blog/psychotic-break-vs-nervous-breakdown/ https://futuresrecoveryhealthcare.com/blog/psychotic-break-v...
A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
<< One question I consider: is a cop that never violates anyone’s civil rights, but also does nothing when their coworkers do, considered a good cop? It is not a bad question to ask. Lets do what lawyers do: change one fact and see how it affects the case at hand. Issue at hand is bad behavior of individuals in a group. Is individual guilty of actions committed by other individuals while being part of that group? I suppose it depends. Is a random US citizen guilty of actions of their politicians? Is a random US citizen guilty of actions of their sheriffs? Is a random US citizen guilty of actions of their neighbors? Is a random US citizen guilty of actions of their partners? Is a random US citizen guilty of actions of their kids? I have problem with either of those despite seeing clearly what you are getting at. Starting from the bottom, I have a problem with 'sins of the father' justification all the way to the politician. I see an abstract reasoning that can take us to 'yes, inaction is a choice too', but is it in the same category? Does it even have the same weight? << There were even active coverups, Kentucky’s Attorney General went to great lengths to push the idea that the entire thing was perfectly legal! Chicago is not better. Some stories are heart-wrenching and, as I stated before, I would not be able to be a cop just based on those alone, but I personally think you are trying to spread sin way too thin, which, contrary to what you think you are doing, is only distributing accountability even further and alienate even those, who could reasonably agree with you otherwise. In very simple terms, if you are gonna define me as bad apple anyway by association only, I might as well stick to my tribe, where at least I will have some level of protection from the outside. And that, I think, is the true problem.

themitigating 4y ago

Do you think it's difficult to consider the cops in family might be bad? It's not like they are going to tell you the horrible things they may have done. You think the cops in your family are good because they are in your family and are nice to you. That's probably the extent of the details about their job you know

deadly_syn 4y ago
This sounds like mental gymnastics at this point. "Have you considered the average hn user is a rapist, of course they deny it and they dont talk about it. You think HN users are good because theyre nice to you!" Im as anti-authoritarian as they come, but I really dont like hyperbolic arguments.
- SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
  I think pointing out “I have cops in my family, therefore there are good cops” is inherently poor counterpoint because obviously the cops aren’t going to admit to wrongdoings to civilians (although the poster didn’t mention any domestic violence happens in the home, which is shockingly high in cop families…) is not mental gymnastics.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
    <<“I have cops in my family, therefore there are good cops” I apologize. This is not what I intended to convey. That line was intended more as disclaimer ("hey. i am not completely objective here"). My actual argument follows beneath ("cops are just humans").
- tracker1 4y ago
  Agreed, I think it was an honest disclosure that one obviously may have bias, but also that one might have more exposure to police than most. My dad spent about a decade as an undercover narc, some pretty interesting stories, including when he had to deal with police while undercover. Getting pulled over leaving a bar on the way to a buy, with gun and badge in motorcycle roll. "I'm not unrolling that..." to prove he was who he said, "I think my boss would be more upset about dropping a buy than me blowing over on an alcohol test." Or, getting caught in the middle of a shootout between the Feds and a biker gang. Edit: My dad also quit two positions along the way, one because his boss was a clear racist, and another that had some other issues in the dept. My mom was a dispatcher, and when retired was head of combined dispatch for a region. She mostly dealt with people in trouble, distress, or sometimes the absurd.

banannaise 4y ago

I think you're overextending the context of "cop". A cop ceases to be a cop when they take off the uniform. They can be perfectly nice people in outside life (although they can also not) but when the uniform goes on, they're contributors to a system of abuse. "No good cops" does not mean good people don't go into policing. It means that those who insist on trying to meaningfully change the system get forced out, leaving only those who contribute to it.

mrguyorama 4y ago
In recent cases, off duty cops have shot strangers and benefited from the incestuous cop dynamic and been protected from any consequences, so no, even when they take off the uniform, they are still a cop. There will never be a good cop until accountability is an actual thing in policing. Even a "justified" shooting by a cop should be considered a horrific failure of process.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  << Even a "justified" shooting by a cop should be considered a horrific failure of process. I think this is where we might disagree. I can't comment for other countries. I can comment a little about Chicagoland. If there is a failure, it is not the failure of the process ( here understood as policing ). At this point, 'justified shooting' is merely what I would classify as 'necessary violence'. I am not using that word lightly, because actual violence only creates problems. It is the failure of: 1. Society that allowed a given issue to fester long enough to move beyond tension 2. Individuals' environment that contributed to it 3. Individuals' family and fiends 4. The individual Police merely deals with the aftermath. I think you got it wrong.