6 ms·

> Because there are no good cops? Do people honestly believe this? Maybe in your country police force is completely broken, but it's still statistical impossib

by msm_ 4y ago

> Because there are no good cops? Do people honestly believe this? Maybe in your country police force is completely broken, but it's still statistical impossibility. In my country, I believe, police is generally good and does their job reasonably. Of course they're not the most beloved job, because if you have to deal with them you probably have a problem, but given that situation they're OK. Maybe fix your police, fire the incompetent ones and replace your polititians that allow this instead of generalising.

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
I live in US and I might be a little biased, because I have cops in my extended family and my parents were friends with local sheriff equivalent in the old country. In short, I agree with you. It is unreasonable to claim to that there are no issues ( and maybe even systemic issues ), but it is also unreasonable to claim that there is no such thing as a good cop. Cops are just people and people respond to the environment they are in. I think parent may exaggerating for brevity ( or at least I hope so ). The solution is what it has always been, correct to the extent that you can until you get what you want in terms of results. Naturally, this line of thinking opens rather uncomfortable set of questions, because: What if the system works as intended given current incentives? And that is a hard question I have no idea how to answer.
- tehwebguy 4y ago
  One question I consider: is a cop that never violates anyone’s civil rights, but also does nothing when their coworkers do, considered a good cop? For instance, are there any good cops in Louisville? Any good state cops in Kentucky? Seems to me they would’ve done something, anything, about the Breonna Taylor case instead of waiting for the feds to come in. There were even active coverups, Kentucky’s Attorney General went to great lengths to push the idea that the entire thing was perfectly legal! Edit: and maybe the federal charges are to some extent the result of an actual good cop in KY blowing a whistle, hopefully we’ll know someday
  - hooverd 4y ago
    There are bad cops, and cops who choose to look away, and I'm sure these are all perfectly wonderful people off the clock, but my example of a good cop is Adrian Schoolcraft and look what they did to him.
  - anonymousiam 4y ago
    It depends on what a cop does when he sees misconduct by others. Christopher Dorner reported misconduct, but was ostracized afterward. He sought justice in his own way afterward: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dorner_shootings_and_manhunt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dorner_shootings_a... Not really relevant, but the ridiculous (and secret) police response once they knew they were being targeted had bad consequences for others too. I have a house near where this multi-agency incident (links below) occurred and there was so much gunfire for such a long period that I knew it had to be cops doing the shooting. https://www.kpcc.org/2014-01-15/la-district-attorney-torrance-cop-who-fired-at-wro https://www.kpcc.org/2014-01-15/la-district-attorney-torranc... https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-no-charges-lapd-shooting-newspaper-delivery-women-dorner-manhunt-20160127-story.html https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-no-charges-lapd...
    - stametseater 4y ago
      Dorner murdered two people who had nothing to do with the LAPD. One was a campus security guard at the University of South Carolina and the other wasn't any sort of cop at all, she was a basketball coach. Even if you believe all of Dorner's allegations against the LAPD, Dorner was still a mass murdering psychopath who targeted and murdering innocent people. In light of that, why would you believe any of his allegations in the first place? Hero worship of Dorner is an insane 4chanism, shame on you. Dorner was nothing more than another murderous cop.
      - anonymousiam 4y ago
        I'm pretty sure that I did not express any sympathy or support for what Dorner did in my post. I do believe though that it's more likely than not that the excessive force he reported actually occurred. His record up to that point was exemplary. After he snapped, his murderous rage was not typical behavior for law enforcement, but it is a fact that psychopathy is far more prevalent in police officers than in the general population. One could argue about whether this is because psychos are drawn to the police profession, or that the nature of the work the police do causes mental problems. https://academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1166&context=jj_etds https://academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1...
- themitigating 4y ago
  Do you think it's difficult to consider the cops in family might be bad? It's not like they are going to tell you the horrible things they may have done. You think the cops in your family are good because they are in your family and are nice to you. That's probably the extent of the details about their job you know
  - deadly_syn 4y ago
    This sounds like mental gymnastics at this point. "Have you considered the average hn user is a rapist, of course they deny it and they dont talk about it. You think HN users are good because theyre nice to you!" Im as anti-authoritarian as they come, but I really dont like hyperbolic arguments.
    - SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
      I think pointing out “I have cops in my family, therefore there are good cops” is inherently poor counterpoint because obviously the cops aren’t going to admit to wrongdoings to civilians (although the poster didn’t mention any domestic violence happens in the home, which is shockingly high in cop families…) is not mental gymnastics.
      - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
        <<“I have cops in my family, therefore there are good cops” I apologize. This is not what I intended to convey. That line was intended more as disclaimer ("hey. i am not completely objective here"). My actual argument follows beneath ("cops are just humans").
    - tracker1 4y ago
      Agreed, I think it was an honest disclosure that one obviously may have bias, but also that one might have more exposure to police than most. My dad spent about a decade as an undercover narc, some pretty interesting stories, including when he had to deal with police while undercover. Getting pulled over leaving a bar on the way to a buy, with gun and badge in motorcycle roll. "I'm not unrolling that..." to prove he was who he said, "I think my boss would be more upset about dropping a buy than me blowing over on an alcohol test." Or, getting caught in the middle of a shootout between the Feds and a biker gang. Edit: My dad also quit two positions along the way, one because his boss was a clear racist, and another that had some other issues in the dept. My mom was a dispatcher, and when retired was head of combined dispatch for a region. She mostly dealt with people in trouble, distress, or sometimes the absurd.
- banannaise 4y ago
  I think you're overextending the context of "cop". A cop ceases to be a cop when they take off the uniform. They can be perfectly nice people in outside life (although they can also not) but when the uniform goes on, they're contributors to a system of abuse. "No good cops" does not mean good people don't go into policing. It means that those who insist on trying to meaningfully change the system get forced out, leaving only those who contribute to it.
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    In recent cases, off duty cops have shot strangers and benefited from the incestuous cop dynamic and been protected from any consequences, so no, even when they take off the uniform, they are still a cop. There will never be a good cop until accountability is an actual thing in policing. Even a "justified" shooting by a cop should be considered a horrific failure of process.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
      << Even a "justified" shooting by a cop should be considered a horrific failure of process. I think this is where we might disagree. I can't comment for other countries. I can comment a little about Chicagoland. If there is a failure, it is not the failure of the process ( here understood as policing ). At this point, 'justified shooting' is merely what I would classify as 'necessary violence'. I am not using that word lightly, because actual violence only creates problems. It is the failure of: 1. Society that allowed a given issue to fester long enough to move beyond tension 2. Individuals' environment that contributed to it 3. Individuals' family and fiends 4. The individual Police merely deals with the aftermath. I think you got it wrong.
mandmandam 4y ago
Yes, a lot of people believe this - and with ample cause. Try googling ACAB, and you'll see just how popular this view is, and the justifications behind it. The origins of police, the purpose they serve, the actions they take, and don't take - the beatings, the broken cameras, the gang behaviour, the covering of asses, the nepotism, the shitty training, the domestic abuse, the collusion and corruption, the straight up murders: It's all the tip of the iceberg really.
giraffe_lady 4y ago
I believe that "there are no good cops" is a reasonable and useful shorthand for a complex situation, yes. Capricious violence, racism, and corruption are so endemic to american policing that every cop is either an active participant, or aware of specific instances and complicit in this lawlessness. The internal culture of policing enforces this through peer pressure, hazing, and threats and violence if necessary. Good people can become police but they can't stay police: they ultimately either warp their morals to conform to this system or leave it entirely. Considering this a problem of individual cop incompetence is naive honestly. This "problem" is so widespread, so universal, that you can't understand the role of police in society without accounting for it. They aren't incompetent and failing at their job: this is their job! Terrorism against the dispossessed is an important part of what they do, and they are doing it.
- throwawaylinux 4y ago
  [flagged]
ElevenLathe 4y ago
Fine, maybe some individual cops somewhere are good in their heart of hearts. I'm even willing to entertain that the ones in Germany are mostly so (at least this decade), but the real meaning of ACAB is that /it is not possible to be a good cop, even if you are a good person/. The /concept of policing/, however implemented, is inherently fascistic, classist, and racist. Police are tasked with keeping order among the hoi polloi but not the ruling class. They are always and everywhere an instrument of entrenched power (private, public, or mixed as befits the particular time and place).
- marginalia_nu 4y ago
  The concept of policing is to be measured against the alternative, which is a state that does not have a monopoly on violence. The warlordism that emerges in such a scenario makes the low grade fascism of a police force seem absolutely utopian in comparison. The police, however corrupt, need to at least superficially appear to uphold law and justice. Warlords do not.

by msm_ 4y ago

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago

I live in US and I might be a little biased, because I have cops in my extended family and my parents were friends with local sheriff equivalent in the old country. In short, I agree with you. It is unreasonable to claim to that there are no issues ( and maybe even systemic issues ), but it is also unreasonable to claim that there is no such thing as a good cop. Cops are just people and people respond to the environment they are in. I think parent may exaggerating for brevity ( or at least I hope so ). The solution is what it has always been, correct to the extent that you can until you get what you want in terms of results. Naturally, this line of thinking opens rather uncomfortable set of questions, because: What if the system works as intended given current incentives? And that is a hard question I have no idea how to answer.

tehwebguy 4y ago
One question I consider: is a cop that never violates anyone’s civil rights, but also does nothing when their coworkers do, considered a good cop? For instance, are there any good cops in Louisville? Any good state cops in Kentucky? Seems to me they would’ve done something, anything, about the Breonna Taylor case instead of waiting for the feds to come in. There were even active coverups, Kentucky’s Attorney General went to great lengths to push the idea that the entire thing was perfectly legal! Edit: and maybe the federal charges are to some extent the result of an actual good cop in KY blowing a whistle, hopefully we’ll know someday
- hooverd 4y ago
  There are bad cops, and cops who choose to look away, and I'm sure these are all perfectly wonderful people off the clock, but my example of a good cop is Adrian Schoolcraft and look what they did to him.
- anonymousiam 4y ago
  It depends on what a cop does when he sees misconduct by others. Christopher Dorner reported misconduct, but was ostracized afterward. He sought justice in his own way afterward: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dorner_shootings_and_manhunt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dorner_shootings_a... Not really relevant, but the ridiculous (and secret) police response once they knew they were being targeted had bad consequences for others too. I have a house near where this multi-agency incident (links below) occurred and there was so much gunfire for such a long period that I knew it had to be cops doing the shooting. https://www.kpcc.org/2014-01-15/la-district-attorney-torrance-cop-who-fired-at-wro https://www.kpcc.org/2014-01-15/la-district-attorney-torranc... https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-no-charges-lapd-shooting-newspaper-delivery-women-dorner-manhunt-20160127-story.html https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-no-charges-lapd...
  - stametseater 4y ago
    Dorner murdered two people who had nothing to do with the LAPD. One was a campus security guard at the University of South Carolina and the other wasn't any sort of cop at all, she was a basketball coach. Even if you believe all of Dorner's allegations against the LAPD, Dorner was still a mass murdering psychopath who targeted and murdering innocent people. In light of that, why would you believe any of his allegations in the first place? Hero worship of Dorner is an insane 4chanism, shame on you. Dorner was nothing more than another murderous cop.
    - anonymousiam 4y ago
      I'm pretty sure that I did not express any sympathy or support for what Dorner did in my post. I do believe though that it's more likely than not that the excessive force he reported actually occurred. His record up to that point was exemplary. After he snapped, his murderous rage was not typical behavior for law enforcement, but it is a fact that psychopathy is far more prevalent in police officers than in the general population. One could argue about whether this is because psychos are drawn to the police profession, or that the nature of the work the police do causes mental problems. https://academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1166&context=jj_etds https://academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1...
themitigating 4y ago
Do you think it's difficult to consider the cops in family might be bad? It's not like they are going to tell you the horrible things they may have done. You think the cops in your family are good because they are in your family and are nice to you. That's probably the extent of the details about their job you know
- deadly_syn 4y ago
  This sounds like mental gymnastics at this point. "Have you considered the average hn user is a rapist, of course they deny it and they dont talk about it. You think HN users are good because theyre nice to you!" Im as anti-authoritarian as they come, but I really dont like hyperbolic arguments.
  - SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
    I think pointing out “I have cops in my family, therefore there are good cops” is inherently poor counterpoint because obviously the cops aren’t going to admit to wrongdoings to civilians (although the poster didn’t mention any domestic violence happens in the home, which is shockingly high in cop families…) is not mental gymnastics.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
      <<“I have cops in my family, therefore there are good cops” I apologize. This is not what I intended to convey. That line was intended more as disclaimer ("hey. i am not completely objective here"). My actual argument follows beneath ("cops are just humans").
  - tracker1 4y ago
    Agreed, I think it was an honest disclosure that one obviously may have bias, but also that one might have more exposure to police than most. My dad spent about a decade as an undercover narc, some pretty interesting stories, including when he had to deal with police while undercover. Getting pulled over leaving a bar on the way to a buy, with gun and badge in motorcycle roll. "I'm not unrolling that..." to prove he was who he said, "I think my boss would be more upset about dropping a buy than me blowing over on an alcohol test." Or, getting caught in the middle of a shootout between the Feds and a biker gang. Edit: My dad also quit two positions along the way, one because his boss was a clear racist, and another that had some other issues in the dept. My mom was a dispatcher, and when retired was head of combined dispatch for a region. She mostly dealt with people in trouble, distress, or sometimes the absurd.
banannaise 4y ago
I think you're overextending the context of "cop". A cop ceases to be a cop when they take off the uniform. They can be perfectly nice people in outside life (although they can also not) but when the uniform goes on, they're contributors to a system of abuse. "No good cops" does not mean good people don't go into policing. It means that those who insist on trying to meaningfully change the system get forced out, leaving only those who contribute to it.
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  In recent cases, off duty cops have shot strangers and benefited from the incestuous cop dynamic and been protected from any consequences, so no, even when they take off the uniform, they are still a cop. There will never be a good cop until accountability is an actual thing in policing. Even a "justified" shooting by a cop should be considered a horrific failure of process.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
    << Even a "justified" shooting by a cop should be considered a horrific failure of process. I think this is where we might disagree. I can't comment for other countries. I can comment a little about Chicagoland. If there is a failure, it is not the failure of the process ( here understood as policing ). At this point, 'justified shooting' is merely what I would classify as 'necessary violence'. I am not using that word lightly, because actual violence only creates problems. It is the failure of: 1. Society that allowed a given issue to fester long enough to move beyond tension 2. Individuals' environment that contributed to it 3. Individuals' family and fiends 4. The individual Police merely deals with the aftermath. I think you got it wrong.

mandmandam 4y ago

Yes, a lot of people believe this - and with ample cause. Try googling ACAB, and you'll see just how popular this view is, and the justifications behind it. The origins of police, the purpose they serve, the actions they take, and don't take - the beatings, the broken cameras, the gang behaviour, the covering of asses, the nepotism, the shitty training, the domestic abuse, the collusion and corruption, the straight up murders: It's all the tip of the iceberg really.

giraffe_lady 4y ago

I believe that "there are no good cops" is a reasonable and useful shorthand for a complex situation, yes. Capricious violence, racism, and corruption are so endemic to american policing that every cop is either an active participant, or aware of specific instances and complicit in this lawlessness. The internal culture of policing enforces this through peer pressure, hazing, and threats and violence if necessary. Good people can become police but they can't stay police: they ultimately either warp their morals to conform to this system or leave it entirely. Considering this a problem of individual cop incompetence is naive honestly. This "problem" is so widespread, so universal, that you can't understand the role of police in society without accounting for it. They aren't incompetent and failing at their job: this is their job! Terrorism against the dispossessed is an important part of what they do, and they are doing it.

throwawaylinux 4y ago
[flagged]

ElevenLathe 4y ago

Fine, maybe some individual cops somewhere are good in their heart of hearts. I'm even willing to entertain that the ones in Germany are mostly so (at least this decade), but the real meaning of ACAB is that /it is not possible to be a good cop, even if you are a good person/. The /concept of policing/, however implemented, is inherently fascistic, classist, and racist. Police are tasked with keeping order among the hoi polloi but not the ruling class. They are always and everywhere an instrument of entrenched power (private, public, or mixed as befits the particular time and place).

marginalia_nu 4y ago
The concept of policing is to be measured against the alternative, which is a state that does not have a monopoly on violence. The warlordism that emerges in such a scenario makes the low grade fascism of a police force seem absolutely utopian in comparison. The police, however corrupt, need to at least superficially appear to uphold law and justice. Warlords do not.