7 ms·

I hope it's possible to fit a pointing stick (TrackPoint) keyboard within that 3.7mm, and that someone first- or third-party makes one. I'm keen to try replacin

I hope it's possible to fit a pointing stick (TrackPoint) keyboard within that 3.7mm, and that someone first- or third-party makes one. I'm keen to try replacing my ThinkPad with a Framework as soon as that's available, but not before.

dgrabla 4y ago
Years using the trackpoint gave me carpal tunnel. Try not to use it exclusively.
- Arch-TK 4y ago
  How many years exactly? I am at almost 9 years of use and I have not felt the slightest hint of any problem (for reference I have in the past suffered from carpal tunnel related issues so I know what it feels like).
  - jojobas 4y ago
    25 years, no issues. Maybe with sensitivity way down you do start pressing too much on it.
    - reirob 4y ago
      Same here
- jeff_carr 4y ago
  I've been using a nipplemouse for at least 20 years. Exclusively. I hate trackpads. I always disable mine. I always use tables that my elbows rest on the table.
  - Epa095 4y ago
    How do you scroll? You reach for the pgdown?
    - dschooh 4y ago
      Middle mouse button plus moving the trackpoint works well for me.
    - test1235 4y ago
      my t480s thinkpad has middle 'mouse' button just above the trackpad which you can hold down to enable scroll control.
- panick21_ 4y ago
  Maybe don't generalize your personal experience. Working with almost anything can give you carpal tunnel. Is there any evidence carpal tunnel is more likely then with any other input method?
  - marpstar 4y ago
    More anecdotes from me on the input-method to wrist-problems correlation: I weight train regularly. Lots of forearm tension. I noticed one day that it always hurt more when I was scrolling (using an original Apple Magic Mouse). Brutal repetitive strain injury. However, when I went for periods of time only using the trackpad in my MacBook, my arm would feel Upon realization, pretty much immediately switched to a trackpad at my desktop as well, and problems went away. It took about 18 months to get from "my arm really fucking hurts" to "yeah, it was the mouse". People always ask why I use a trackpad at a desktop, I tell this story. I don't remember the last time I used a mouse on my computer.
    - Floegipoky 4y ago
      I had a very similar experience. It started to happen within less than a year of starting my career. Both arms bothered me if I was typing in high gear for a long time, but the right was a lot worse and started to be an everyday thing. I switched the mouse from right to left side for a week and the right side started to feel a lot better. I ditched the mouse for a trackpad and picked up a kinesis advantage and never looked back. Still use a mouse and traditional keyboard layout for my gaming PC though.
    - ris58h 4y ago
      Same story. Magic Trackpad is a life saver and the reason I'm stuck with Macbooks.
    - occoder 4y ago
      Yep, it's almost always the mouse. Many people, developers included, use the mouse to point and click when they need to change the caret position while editing text. If you do enough of that, the amount of precisely controlled movement involved quickly add up to repetitive strain injury on your hand/wrist. I've seen colleagues in their 20s/30s suffering from this problem, to a point that they needed to use the mouse with their other hand. I'd recommend using the keyboard to navigate within a document. It's going to take some getting used to, but it'll be best for your hand health in the long run. Meanwhile, switching to a trackball (remember those?), a trackpad, or a trackpoint mouse, will definitely alleviate the symptoms.
Leimi 4y ago
Sadly I feel like trackpoints are really end of life and I wouldn't be surprised if Lenovo ditched them entirely soon. It seems they keep it only to please the tiny but vocal minority of tinkerers that we are. But we mostly buy old, second hand thinkpads. And as keyboards get thinner, trackpoints lose in quality. On linux it seems the software side is also not as good as before with libinput. So I'd be really surprised if any one new on the market would go about making keyboards with trackpoints now.
- cduzz 4y ago
  There's a trope in car nerd circles of "We all know the best vehicle is a manual transmission brown diesel station wagon" and then of course these people only buy one that's 10 years old, so at this point no car company makes such a beast new. Pre-covid I'd made do with whatever garbage keyboard and garbage monitor $job dumped in front of me, but almost by happenstance I ended up with a 16:10 monitor and an IBM M4-1 keyboard, and surprisingly it is an enormous improvement in work environment and I'm actually somewhat more effective at $job. (And I should have known this -- I "grew up" using IBM F / M or Focus fk-2002 keyboards that these days sell for actual money on the used market; spent a decade in front of enormous tubed workstations, etc, but normalization of deviance is a real thing) Anyhow -- perhaps with framework's more modular approach they'd be able to make a form factor with more depth in the case to allow for a "real keyboard". Or more likely I'm just asking for a manual transmission station wagon. Safety Yellow please.
  - hr2016 4y ago
    >> the best vehicle is a manual transmission brown diesel station wagon Wow, that's exactly what I own. Manual, diesel, brown, station wagon. 10 years old. Bought new though, still going strong. =)
    - gibspaulding 4y ago
      What is it/where are you? I can't think of a single vehicle available in the US that fits that description since the 90's.
Agingcoder 4y ago
Yes, on this particular topic I don't use laptops because I find them painful (cramped keyboard and track pad). It looks there might be enough space here (and maybe custom modules) to remove the track pad completely, and have a more ergonomic keyboard.

dgrabla 4y ago

Years using the trackpoint gave me carpal tunnel. Try not to use it exclusively.

Arch-TK 4y ago
How many years exactly? I am at almost 9 years of use and I have not felt the slightest hint of any problem (for reference I have in the past suffered from carpal tunnel related issues so I know what it feels like).
- jojobas 4y ago
  25 years, no issues. Maybe with sensitivity way down you do start pressing too much on it.
  - reirob 4y ago
    Same here
jeff_carr 4y ago
I've been using a nipplemouse for at least 20 years. Exclusively. I hate trackpads. I always disable mine. I always use tables that my elbows rest on the table.
- Epa095 4y ago
  How do you scroll? You reach for the pgdown?
  - dschooh 4y ago
    Middle mouse button plus moving the trackpoint works well for me.
  - test1235 4y ago
    my t480s thinkpad has middle 'mouse' button just above the trackpad which you can hold down to enable scroll control.
panick21_ 4y ago
Maybe don't generalize your personal experience. Working with almost anything can give you carpal tunnel. Is there any evidence carpal tunnel is more likely then with any other input method?
- marpstar 4y ago
  More anecdotes from me on the input-method to wrist-problems correlation: I weight train regularly. Lots of forearm tension. I noticed one day that it always hurt more when I was scrolling (using an original Apple Magic Mouse). Brutal repetitive strain injury. However, when I went for periods of time only using the trackpad in my MacBook, my arm would feel Upon realization, pretty much immediately switched to a trackpad at my desktop as well, and problems went away. It took about 18 months to get from "my arm really fucking hurts" to "yeah, it was the mouse". People always ask why I use a trackpad at a desktop, I tell this story. I don't remember the last time I used a mouse on my computer.
  - Floegipoky 4y ago
    I had a very similar experience. It started to happen within less than a year of starting my career. Both arms bothered me if I was typing in high gear for a long time, but the right was a lot worse and started to be an everyday thing. I switched the mouse from right to left side for a week and the right side started to feel a lot better. I ditched the mouse for a trackpad and picked up a kinesis advantage and never looked back. Still use a mouse and traditional keyboard layout for my gaming PC though.
  - ris58h 4y ago
    Same story. Magic Trackpad is a life saver and the reason I'm stuck with Macbooks.
  - occoder 4y ago
    Yep, it's almost always the mouse. Many people, developers included, use the mouse to point and click when they need to change the caret position while editing text. If you do enough of that, the amount of precisely controlled movement involved quickly add up to repetitive strain injury on your hand/wrist. I've seen colleagues in their 20s/30s suffering from this problem, to a point that they needed to use the mouse with their other hand. I'd recommend using the keyboard to navigate within a document. It's going to take some getting used to, but it'll be best for your hand health in the long run. Meanwhile, switching to a trackball (remember those?), a trackpad, or a trackpoint mouse, will definitely alleviate the symptoms.

Leimi 4y ago

Sadly I feel like trackpoints are really end of life and I wouldn't be surprised if Lenovo ditched them entirely soon. It seems they keep it only to please the tiny but vocal minority of tinkerers that we are. But we mostly buy old, second hand thinkpads. And as keyboards get thinner, trackpoints lose in quality. On linux it seems the software side is also not as good as before with libinput. So I'd be really surprised if any one new on the market would go about making keyboards with trackpoints now.

cduzz 4y ago
There's a trope in car nerd circles of "We all know the best vehicle is a manual transmission brown diesel station wagon" and then of course these people only buy one that's 10 years old, so at this point no car company makes such a beast new. Pre-covid I'd made do with whatever garbage keyboard and garbage monitor $job dumped in front of me, but almost by happenstance I ended up with a 16:10 monitor and an IBM M4-1 keyboard, and surprisingly it is an enormous improvement in work environment and I'm actually somewhat more effective at $job. (And I should have known this -- I "grew up" using IBM F / M or Focus fk-2002 keyboards that these days sell for actual money on the used market; spent a decade in front of enormous tubed workstations, etc, but normalization of deviance is a real thing) Anyhow -- perhaps with framework's more modular approach they'd be able to make a form factor with more depth in the case to allow for a "real keyboard". Or more likely I'm just asking for a manual transmission station wagon. Safety Yellow please.
- hr2016 4y ago
  >> the best vehicle is a manual transmission brown diesel station wagon Wow, that's exactly what I own. Manual, diesel, brown, station wagon. 10 years old. Bought new though, still going strong. =)
  - gibspaulding 4y ago
    What is it/where are you? I can't think of a single vehicle available in the US that fits that description since the 90's.

Agingcoder 4y ago

Yes, on this particular topic I don't use laptops because I find them painful (cramped keyboard and track pad). It looks there might be enough space here (and maybe custom modules) to remove the track pad completely, and have a more ergonomic keyboard.