6 ms·

I think that soothes our outrage. But it’s like firing the whole development team because we all keep ignoring lint errors and our bugs crash the system. I th

I think that soothes our outrage. But it’s like firing the whole development team because we all keep ignoring lint errors and our bugs crash the system. I think there’s systemic changes to make. Maybe for cases like this if the judge or person that approves the warrants has a high failure rate they can no longer approve warrants.

psychphysic 4y ago
The problem is that power corrupts. Same issue with nearly every place people have power. It feels particularly acute in the US because of reverent attitudes to police force. But doctors, nurses, teachers, priests... Good people will do bad things given half a chance.
- eru 4y ago
  > It feels particularly acute in the US because of reverent attitudes to police force. From what I can tell from the outside, people always accuse American police of being terrible. I don't see much of a reverent attitude.
  - macintux 4y ago
    It’s a big country with wildly divergent opinions and political tribalism run amok. In rural areas “back the blue” yard signs supporting the police are widespread.
  - tstrimple 4y ago
    From the outside you can't see all the Thin Blue Line flag bumper stickers or Back the Blue yard signs during BLM protests. The Republican Party hates government, but seems to love cops for some reason. Republicans don't trust the government, but they trust cops. Republicans generally think the government is wholly incompetent, but want them to practice the death penalty and immediately trust the police account of fatal shootings. If Republican distrust of government was consistent, we would be able to address the systemic issues found in many police and sheriff departments around the country. Since our legislature requires a super majority to pass bills, there is no opportunity to address this is in a way that will really make a difference. Instead, each locality has to find a way to influence their police departments individually with very little success.
    - DFHippie 4y ago
      There is a consistency in Republican attitudes towards government: they trust the parts of government they feel they control and wish to destroy the parts they fear they do not control. Lionize the police and the military. Kill the EPA , NOAA, HUD, the IRS, and the FDA. The only time they hate law enforcement is when it is used to enforce a law against them, see Waco, Ruby Ridge, the Malheur Wildlife Refuge, etc. And then boy do they hate it, because they see this as disloyalty, as treason. This attitude goes way back. It is characterological. See the Fugitive Slave Act versus states' rights.
      - concordDance 4y ago
        Note that the Democrat views mirror the Republican ones, trusting those institutions they control and distrusting the others.
        DFHippie 4y ago
        There I think you need to distinguish Democrat from liberals/leftists/progressives. There are differences of opinions among the latter group. I would say the majority distrust the police and the military but see them as necessary institutions that should be reformed. The Democrats, which is to say the people who have some claim to speak for the party, profess their love for law enforcement and the military, whatever their private reservations. This is not how Republicans, the politicians, behave towards the EPA and the rest. Also, the Democrats have never had a politician of any stature, let alone a president of their party, say "Government is not the solution to the problem. Government is the problem." That was Ronald Reagan. In other words, you are right, the left does distrust those portions of the government it does not control, but there is an enormous difference of degree in how the two sides behave towards these portions of the government.
        mrguyorama 4y ago
        That's a gross mischaracterization. Democrats trust government as an institution but that does not mean democrats trust all government, it just means they think government can solve problems, as opposed to the republican projected view (though not actual view of their voters IMO) that government is inherently broken as a concept and should be reduced to absolute minimal size. There's no inconsistency in trusting a democratic process to do mostly democratic things but thinking the lack of accountability in policing has had negative outcomes. The vast majority of democratic voters in america do not support "abolish the police' in entirety, but rather that reforms are needed.
  - chongli 4y ago
    That’s because you don’t consume U.S.-based right-wing media. The reverence/disgust for police splits right down party lines. Team red supports the “boys in blue” but hates team blue. What a weird situation!
    - marcus0x62 4y ago
      More generally, if you don’t/haven’t lived in the United States (or have only ever visited/lived in a large city,) and only consume “mainstream” US-based news, like the New York Times, Washington Post, NPR, etc., you’ll get a center-left-slanted view of the United States. The first problem with that, from the perspective of forming an accurate view of the populace, is that, as a whole, the US leans ever-so-slightly center-right[0]. The second problem is that much of our political news is a circus whereby both political parties attempt to paint a picture that the “majority” of the country is behind more extreme interpretations of their platforms — that the country leans more heavily to the left or the right than it really does. The Republican Party has been doing this for more than a generation; its a more recent phenomenon with the Democrats. 0 - https://news.gallup.com/poll/275792/remained-center-right-ideologically-2019.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/275792/remained-center-right-id...
    - brookst 4y ago
      …unless the police are investigating Team Red, in which case they are part of the vast left wing conspiracy. …and except when Team Red needs to justify owning military grade weapons, in which case it’s all about deterring tyranny by being prepared to shoot cops and soldiers. It’s a very… situational reverence. Like, as long as the situation is the police attacking the correct demographics.
      - mrguyorama 4y ago
        It's hilarious when conservatives and cops get really uppity about the 2nd amendment. Who the fuck do they think they would be shooting at if the state ever came for their guns? Or you can look at how they view the ATF, completely ignoring that every other LEO organization in the country is very very similar in structure.
    - 4y ago
  - concordDance 4y ago
    What you see online is very unrepresentative. Both of people's views (which often breaks along party lines) and the actual dangerousness of USA cops (which varies wildly depending on location and department).
- michael_vo 4y ago
  Power does corrupt but systems can overcome it. A lot of good research out there about mistakes in hospitals arising from the power dynamic between doctors and nurses. How nurses would be afraid to challenge doctors when they make mistakes. And how changing the systems and culture can fix it. Think the book checklists discusses this in detail .
  - amenghra 4y ago
    Checklist Manifesto By Atul Gawande (MD), if anyone is interested to lookup the book.
- sophacles 4y ago
  You're confusing a person's job title with thier morality.
tremon 4y ago
Rather, it's like firing the whole development team because they retaliate against stakeholders.
iconosynclast 4y ago
These are not comparable situations. Ideally everyone should do a good job, sure, but cops are in an entirely different position in terms of power and responsibility. as part of the executive arm of government they are tasked with holding the monopoly on violence and egregious mistakes in doing so are a fundamental violation of basic rights and the peaceful order of society. When they screw up it's not a bad product being delivered, it's trust in society being eroded, lives being destroyed and the door to tyranny being opened just a little further. severe deterrence against misbehavior, loosing a job honestly seeming VERY weak compared to the scale of responsibility at play here, should simply be par for the course in this context.
- belorn 4y ago
  As part of the executive arm of government, they are under the responsibility of the government. When they screw up it reflects on the ability of the government to organize, regulate and fund that executive arm, and also the trust that people have put into those politicians. If people no longer trust that executive arm of government, then hold those in power responsible for it. Start at the top and replace those politicians. An elected politician can only remain in office if they continue to receive support by voters.
  - magicalist 4y ago
    Sure, replace the politicians at the top who aren't willing to cull and replace dysfunctional and corrupt members of the police force. And if it's systemic, the entire police force, which is what's being suggested.
  - iconosynclast 4y ago
    Sure politicians should also be held accountable for policy failures but I don't think it absolves the people enacting an injustice from responsibility. "just following orders" is not a valid excuse and "just vote different" is not a valid way to hold people accountable (in all cases). When everything works in the spirit of the law and the output is still bad it makes sense to just vote for different laws/people to make new legislation, sure, but when rights are being violated there need to be harsh consequences.
quintushoratius 4y ago
Your comparison is poor. A more accurate comparison would be firing the whole team for inserting intentional backdoors and collecting fractional pennies from each transaction and depositing them in personal accounts. Accidents happen to everyone. We often make trade offs. In the cases we're talking about, these weren't accidents or appropriate judgement calls.

psychphysic 4y ago

The problem is that power corrupts. Same issue with nearly every place people have power. It feels particularly acute in the US because of reverent attitudes to police force. But doctors, nurses, teachers, priests... Good people will do bad things given half a chance.

eru 4y ago
> It feels particularly acute in the US because of reverent attitudes to police force. From what I can tell from the outside, people always accuse American police of being terrible. I don't see much of a reverent attitude.
- macintux 4y ago
  It’s a big country with wildly divergent opinions and political tribalism run amok. In rural areas “back the blue” yard signs supporting the police are widespread.
- tstrimple 4y ago
  From the outside you can't see all the Thin Blue Line flag bumper stickers or Back the Blue yard signs during BLM protests. The Republican Party hates government, but seems to love cops for some reason. Republicans don't trust the government, but they trust cops. Republicans generally think the government is wholly incompetent, but want them to practice the death penalty and immediately trust the police account of fatal shootings. If Republican distrust of government was consistent, we would be able to address the systemic issues found in many police and sheriff departments around the country. Since our legislature requires a super majority to pass bills, there is no opportunity to address this is in a way that will really make a difference. Instead, each locality has to find a way to influence their police departments individually with very little success.
  - DFHippie 4y ago
    There is a consistency in Republican attitudes towards government: they trust the parts of government they feel they control and wish to destroy the parts they fear they do not control. Lionize the police and the military. Kill the EPA , NOAA, HUD, the IRS, and the FDA. The only time they hate law enforcement is when it is used to enforce a law against them, see Waco, Ruby Ridge, the Malheur Wildlife Refuge, etc. And then boy do they hate it, because they see this as disloyalty, as treason. This attitude goes way back. It is characterological. See the Fugitive Slave Act versus states' rights.
    - concordDance 4y ago
      Note that the Democrat views mirror the Republican ones, trusting those institutions they control and distrusting the others.
      - DFHippie 4y ago
        There I think you need to distinguish Democrat from liberals/leftists/progressives. There are differences of opinions among the latter group. I would say the majority distrust the police and the military but see them as necessary institutions that should be reformed. The Democrats, which is to say the people who have some claim to speak for the party, profess their love for law enforcement and the military, whatever their private reservations. This is not how Republicans, the politicians, behave towards the EPA and the rest. Also, the Democrats have never had a politician of any stature, let alone a president of their party, say "Government is not the solution to the problem. Government is the problem." That was Ronald Reagan. In other words, you are right, the left does distrust those portions of the government it does not control, but there is an enormous difference of degree in how the two sides behave towards these portions of the government.
      - mrguyorama 4y ago
        That's a gross mischaracterization. Democrats trust government as an institution but that does not mean democrats trust all government, it just means they think government can solve problems, as opposed to the republican projected view (though not actual view of their voters IMO) that government is inherently broken as a concept and should be reduced to absolute minimal size. There's no inconsistency in trusting a democratic process to do mostly democratic things but thinking the lack of accountability in policing has had negative outcomes. The vast majority of democratic voters in america do not support "abolish the police' in entirety, but rather that reforms are needed.
- chongli 4y ago
  That’s because you don’t consume U.S.-based right-wing media. The reverence/disgust for police splits right down party lines. Team red supports the “boys in blue” but hates team blue. What a weird situation!
  - marcus0x62 4y ago
    More generally, if you don’t/haven’t lived in the United States (or have only ever visited/lived in a large city,) and only consume “mainstream” US-based news, like the New York Times, Washington Post, NPR, etc., you’ll get a center-left-slanted view of the United States. The first problem with that, from the perspective of forming an accurate view of the populace, is that, as a whole, the US leans ever-so-slightly center-right[0]. The second problem is that much of our political news is a circus whereby both political parties attempt to paint a picture that the “majority” of the country is behind more extreme interpretations of their platforms — that the country leans more heavily to the left or the right than it really does. The Republican Party has been doing this for more than a generation; its a more recent phenomenon with the Democrats. 0 - https://news.gallup.com/poll/275792/remained-center-right-ideologically-2019.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/275792/remained-center-right-id...
  - brookst 4y ago
    …unless the police are investigating Team Red, in which case they are part of the vast left wing conspiracy. …and except when Team Red needs to justify owning military grade weapons, in which case it’s all about deterring tyranny by being prepared to shoot cops and soldiers. It’s a very… situational reverence. Like, as long as the situation is the police attacking the correct demographics.
    - mrguyorama 4y ago
      It's hilarious when conservatives and cops get really uppity about the 2nd amendment. Who the fuck do they think they would be shooting at if the state ever came for their guns? Or you can look at how they view the ATF, completely ignoring that every other LEO organization in the country is very very similar in structure.
  - 4y ago
- concordDance 4y ago
  What you see online is very unrepresentative. Both of people's views (which often breaks along party lines) and the actual dangerousness of USA cops (which varies wildly depending on location and department).
michael_vo 4y ago
Power does corrupt but systems can overcome it. A lot of good research out there about mistakes in hospitals arising from the power dynamic between doctors and nurses. How nurses would be afraid to challenge doctors when they make mistakes. And how changing the systems and culture can fix it. Think the book checklists discusses this in detail .
- amenghra 4y ago
  Checklist Manifesto By Atul Gawande (MD), if anyone is interested to lookup the book.
sophacles 4y ago
You're confusing a person's job title with thier morality.

tremon 4y ago

Rather, it's like firing the whole development team because they retaliate against stakeholders.

iconosynclast 4y ago

These are not comparable situations. Ideally everyone should do a good job, sure, but cops are in an entirely different position in terms of power and responsibility. as part of the executive arm of government they are tasked with holding the monopoly on violence and egregious mistakes in doing so are a fundamental violation of basic rights and the peaceful order of society. When they screw up it's not a bad product being delivered, it's trust in society being eroded, lives being destroyed and the door to tyranny being opened just a little further. severe deterrence against misbehavior, loosing a job honestly seeming VERY weak compared to the scale of responsibility at play here, should simply be par for the course in this context.

belorn 4y ago
As part of the executive arm of government, they are under the responsibility of the government. When they screw up it reflects on the ability of the government to organize, regulate and fund that executive arm, and also the trust that people have put into those politicians. If people no longer trust that executive arm of government, then hold those in power responsible for it. Start at the top and replace those politicians. An elected politician can only remain in office if they continue to receive support by voters.
- magicalist 4y ago
  Sure, replace the politicians at the top who aren't willing to cull and replace dysfunctional and corrupt members of the police force. And if it's systemic, the entire police force, which is what's being suggested.
- iconosynclast 4y ago
  Sure politicians should also be held accountable for policy failures but I don't think it absolves the people enacting an injustice from responsibility. "just following orders" is not a valid excuse and "just vote different" is not a valid way to hold people accountable (in all cases). When everything works in the spirit of the law and the output is still bad it makes sense to just vote for different laws/people to make new legislation, sure, but when rights are being violated there need to be harsh consequences.

quintushoratius 4y ago

Your comparison is poor. A more accurate comparison would be firing the whole team for inserting intentional backdoors and collecting fractional pennies from each transaction and depositing them in personal accounts. Accidents happen to everyone. We often make trade offs. In the cases we're talking about, these weren't accidents or appropriate judgement calls.