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For years I made the error of learning music theory without enough ear training. You have to hear and feel the theory, it's not only intellectual. Then I found

For years I made the error of learning music theory without enough ear training. You have to hear and feel the theory, it's not only intellectual. Then I found 2 exercises are all I needed for playing and composing music by ear: - Functional intervals / scale degrees: https://tonesavvy.com/music-practice-exercise/220/functional-solfege-scale-degree-ear/ https://tonesavvy.com/music-practice-exercise/220/functional.... If you start tone deaf like me checked "Fixed Key", learn all the intervals, then restart with basic intervals without fixed key. - Melodic dictation: the advanced version of the exercise above once you are comfortable with each interval: https://tonesavvy.com/music-practice-exercise/222/melodic-dictation-ear-training/ https://tonesavvy.com/music-practice-exercise/222/melodic-di... Once you can do melodic dictation you will be able to easily decode anything you hear, and map it to theory. Edit: chord identification (https://tonesavvy.com/music-practice-exercise/216/chord-identification-ear-training-game/ https://tonesavvy.com/music-practice-exercise/216/chord-iden...) is obviously important but by then identifying basic chords should be easy, so it's for a more advanced level.

wigster 4y ago
wow - i am terrible at that. i play guitar, keyboards and sing (ok) but i cannot do that. nice util tho. must practice more...
- cushychicken 4y ago
  Same. Ear training is hard.
raincole 4y ago
Tonesavvy looks like an ugly clone of https://tonedear.com/ear-training/intervals https://tonedear.com/ear-training/intervals
- leetrout 4y ago
  > ToneSavvy, the for-teachers version of this website On the page you linked
  - bajsejohannes 4y ago
    I wonder why the for-teacher version uses chords to establish the tonic, and the other uses just a note. I find the latter much easier (but probably only because that's what I've practiced). I assume there's great benefit in being proficient in both.
bitcoinmoney 4y ago
I thought tone deaf was permanent. Can you link Fixed Key? Is it an app?
- kylecazar 4y ago
  It's a setting in the 'Advanced Settings' section of the app OP linked.
- efficax 4y ago
  anyone who can hear can learn relative pitch, although some people seem better equipped and a very very small number seem to have absolute pitch
  - klodolph 4y ago
    Most people can learn relative pitch, some people cannot, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusia
  - unshavedyak 4y ago
    To add to this, one of the seemingly better examples i was shown was that most of us who like music have a handful of songs that we can hear perfectly. We don't realize it, but that's one foundational tool to find the relative pitch of something. Ie despite not having absolute perfect pitch, we know can accurately hear a variety of notes by just remembering a song, chorus, hook, etc. In doing so, we can figure out those notes and then use that to help determine the relative pitch of something else. Works better the more songs you know. It's also not advocating learning songs for this purpose, but rather using songs you already know. Songs you grew up with, etc. Anything you deeply know.
tarentel 4y ago
I used Earmaster a few years ago. It is not free but it covers everything from sight singing, which works fairly decently, to rhythm detection/dictation, chord detection, melodic dictation, interval training, etc. It was a ton of practice and for me not very fun. I already knew quite a bit of theory but after putting in the work it's helped a lot. Prior to this I had only done some sight singing, basic interval training, and some basic chord progression detection. I can pretty much play close to instantly anything I hear in my head. I can also play anything I hear in real life as well, almost, if the music is incredibly fast or complex I might not remember it well enough to do so. Even if I can't play something I hear though in real life I can break down the higher level parts and structures pretty quickly at the very least. Either way, if you're new to this or don't want to pay for software since you can probably do a lot of this for free, I would definitely start out with sight singing. It'll speed up learning intervals and melodic dictation much faster than if you don't learn how to do it.
mtalantikite 4y ago
> You have to hear and feel the theory, it's not only intellectual. This is the most important part, for sure. The theory needs to get into your body. I'd also suggest to the OP to find a teacher that specializes in jazz, because the practice of improvisation requires you to embody that theory. A good teacher that focuses on improvisation will help you navigate through all the different building blocks you need, which happens to be theory. I studied your typical classical piano as a kid, abandoned it in college, and later in life came back to it with a jazz improvisation teacher. It's amazing how little you actually learn about music when all you're doing is reading sheet music as a kid. Now when I go back to play, say, Bach, I can see so many other things going on since I've spent so much time hearing and feeling the improv theory. There's also a great YouTube channel I've been watching, based around the teaching theory of Barry Harris: https://www.youtube.com/@thingsivelearnedfrombarryh2616 https://www.youtube.com/@thingsivelearnedfrombarryh2616
- lo_zamoyski 4y ago
  > It's amazing how little you actually learn about music when all you're doing is reading sheet music as a kid. I would add that historically, most musicians did not read music or theorize. They were practitioners who picked up the skill by listening to others, practicing, and improvising. Improvisation was what historically characterized musicianship, not theory, not sight-reading. As the philosophical joke goes: anything you can do I can do meta. Theory is about music; it is not the practice of music. You can learn as much theory as you want, but theory is not practice. Theory can, of course, later sharpen or lead you to certain insights that can shape the music you produce, but practice is what produces facility, familiarity, and understanding, whereas theorizing produces knowledge. Learning theory too early is a pedagogic mistake. By analogy, consider speech. You don't begin to speak by learning grammar first. You begin by practicing. Only later can some knowledge of grammar help, perhaps. The way you become good at speaking is by practicing, and what is speech if not some combination of recitation and improvisation? Reading is entirely incidental and secondary.
  - mtalantikite 4y ago
    Totally agree. The practice is what's important. My teacher won't let you look at sheet music for songs at first, he'll make you listen to Donna Lee 1000 times, sing it and work it out yourself before you check your work with the sheet music. Which reminds me of an anecdote in Hampton Hawes' autobiogrophy [1] where some famous teacher convinces him to take a lesson, after which Hampton writes he didn't really care for all of that theory stuff, he learned from playing with people like Mingus and Charlie Parker. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampton_Hawes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampton_Hawes
normcoreashore 4y ago
Such a good point about needing to feel it. For intuitive interval training you can try this app (I built). https://harmonyoscillators.brianfogg.com/ https://harmonyoscillators.brianfogg.com/ Essentially it’s two tunable sine wave oscillators and a simple waveform visualizer. you can manually tune the oscillators to any interval, gradually slide things in/out of tune, select intervals from from scales and see the mathematical calculations generated by various tunings. You can also run it in binaural mode (pure tone in each ear). When I was teaching piano and music theory I used this tool to help students practice active listening for beat frequency and harmony. Maybe it can be useful to some of you.
- rreichel03 4y ago
  Wow I just played with this for a while - I've never had the opportunity to see and hear the waves at the same time and really enjoyed it. It was really neat getting the frequencies close in binaural mode and hearing the pulsing of the phases being slightly off. Thanks for sharing!
  - normcoreashore 4y ago
    Absolutely!
skyde 4y ago
thanks I tried the first one "Functional intervals / scale degrees:" and cant even get 50% correct with a choice of 2 notes. What is wrong with me :)

wigster 4y ago

wow - i am terrible at that. i play guitar, keyboards and sing (ok) but i cannot do that. nice util tho. must practice more...

cushychicken 4y ago
Same. Ear training is hard.

raincole 4y ago

Tonesavvy looks like an ugly clone of https://tonedear.com/ear-training/intervals https://tonedear.com/ear-training/intervals

leetrout 4y ago
> ToneSavvy, the for-teachers version of this website On the page you linked
- bajsejohannes 4y ago
  I wonder why the for-teacher version uses chords to establish the tonic, and the other uses just a note. I find the latter much easier (but probably only because that's what I've practiced). I assume there's great benefit in being proficient in both.

bitcoinmoney 4y ago

I thought tone deaf was permanent. Can you link Fixed Key? Is it an app?

kylecazar 4y ago
It's a setting in the 'Advanced Settings' section of the app OP linked.
efficax 4y ago
anyone who can hear can learn relative pitch, although some people seem better equipped and a very very small number seem to have absolute pitch
- klodolph 4y ago
  Most people can learn relative pitch, some people cannot, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusia
- unshavedyak 4y ago
  To add to this, one of the seemingly better examples i was shown was that most of us who like music have a handful of songs that we can hear perfectly. We don't realize it, but that's one foundational tool to find the relative pitch of something. Ie despite not having absolute perfect pitch, we know can accurately hear a variety of notes by just remembering a song, chorus, hook, etc. In doing so, we can figure out those notes and then use that to help determine the relative pitch of something else. Works better the more songs you know. It's also not advocating learning songs for this purpose, but rather using songs you already know. Songs you grew up with, etc. Anything you deeply know.

tarentel 4y ago

I used Earmaster a few years ago. It is not free but it covers everything from sight singing, which works fairly decently, to rhythm detection/dictation, chord detection, melodic dictation, interval training, etc. It was a ton of practice and for me not very fun. I already knew quite a bit of theory but after putting in the work it's helped a lot. Prior to this I had only done some sight singing, basic interval training, and some basic chord progression detection. I can pretty much play close to instantly anything I hear in my head. I can also play anything I hear in real life as well, almost, if the music is incredibly fast or complex I might not remember it well enough to do so. Even if I can't play something I hear though in real life I can break down the higher level parts and structures pretty quickly at the very least. Either way, if you're new to this or don't want to pay for software since you can probably do a lot of this for free, I would definitely start out with sight singing. It'll speed up learning intervals and melodic dictation much faster than if you don't learn how to do it.

mtalantikite 4y ago

> You have to hear and feel the theory, it's not only intellectual. This is the most important part, for sure. The theory needs to get into your body. I'd also suggest to the OP to find a teacher that specializes in jazz, because the practice of improvisation requires you to embody that theory. A good teacher that focuses on improvisation will help you navigate through all the different building blocks you need, which happens to be theory. I studied your typical classical piano as a kid, abandoned it in college, and later in life came back to it with a jazz improvisation teacher. It's amazing how little you actually learn about music when all you're doing is reading sheet music as a kid. Now when I go back to play, say, Bach, I can see so many other things going on since I've spent so much time hearing and feeling the improv theory. There's also a great YouTube channel I've been watching, based around the teaching theory of Barry Harris: https://www.youtube.com/@thingsivelearnedfrombarryh2616 https://www.youtube.com/@thingsivelearnedfrombarryh2616

lo_zamoyski 4y ago
> It's amazing how little you actually learn about music when all you're doing is reading sheet music as a kid. I would add that historically, most musicians did not read music or theorize. They were practitioners who picked up the skill by listening to others, practicing, and improvising. Improvisation was what historically characterized musicianship, not theory, not sight-reading. As the philosophical joke goes: anything you can do I can do meta. Theory is about music; it is not the practice of music. You can learn as much theory as you want, but theory is not practice. Theory can, of course, later sharpen or lead you to certain insights that can shape the music you produce, but practice is what produces facility, familiarity, and understanding, whereas theorizing produces knowledge. Learning theory too early is a pedagogic mistake. By analogy, consider speech. You don't begin to speak by learning grammar first. You begin by practicing. Only later can some knowledge of grammar help, perhaps. The way you become good at speaking is by practicing, and what is speech if not some combination of recitation and improvisation? Reading is entirely incidental and secondary.
- mtalantikite 4y ago
  Totally agree. The practice is what's important. My teacher won't let you look at sheet music for songs at first, he'll make you listen to Donna Lee 1000 times, sing it and work it out yourself before you check your work with the sheet music. Which reminds me of an anecdote in Hampton Hawes' autobiogrophy [1] where some famous teacher convinces him to take a lesson, after which Hampton writes he didn't really care for all of that theory stuff, he learned from playing with people like Mingus and Charlie Parker. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampton_Hawes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampton_Hawes

normcoreashore 4y ago

Such a good point about needing to feel it. For intuitive interval training you can try this app (I built). https://harmonyoscillators.brianfogg.com/ https://harmonyoscillators.brianfogg.com/ Essentially it’s two tunable sine wave oscillators and a simple waveform visualizer. you can manually tune the oscillators to any interval, gradually slide things in/out of tune, select intervals from from scales and see the mathematical calculations generated by various tunings. You can also run it in binaural mode (pure tone in each ear). When I was teaching piano and music theory I used this tool to help students practice active listening for beat frequency and harmony. Maybe it can be useful to some of you.

rreichel03 4y ago
Wow I just played with this for a while - I've never had the opportunity to see and hear the waves at the same time and really enjoyed it. It was really neat getting the frequencies close in binaural mode and hearing the pulsing of the phases being slightly off. Thanks for sharing!
- normcoreashore 4y ago
  Absolutely!

skyde 4y ago

thanks I tried the first one "Functional intervals / scale degrees:" and cant even get 50% correct with a choice of 2 notes. What is wrong with me :)