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(Not sure why the downvote, it's a legit question) I'm of a mind there should be more union protections for everyone, not fewer. The strong protections that po

(Not sure why the downvote, it's a legit question) I'm of a mind there should be more union protections for everyone, not fewer. The strong protections that police have should be the norm. As for police reform, I moved from the US to a Nordic country known for professional and committed cops. Mind blowing, how calm and peaceful and unfraught dealing with cops are, here. When I first moved here, it was the police department that handled immigration matters and I nearly had a panic attack. Completely unnecessary fear. To be a cop here requires 4 years of training, a degree, as well as ongoing psych evals. Everyone including the police are just so freaking reasonable it can be disconcerting! I'm not sure what is going on in the US that makes the government so extractive. That corruption is the root cause of any police corruption. But more training and exclusivity couldn't hurt.

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paws 4y ago
> The strong protections that police have should be the norm. I agree the US generally doesn't have great worker protections and the situation should probably be improved. On the other hand, when the public seeks redress against police misconduct, they have the unions to thank for serious obstacles they must face. Unions historically have succeeded in hiding disciplinary records from the public, apparently help "bad apples" quickly get re-hired the next town over, inflate salaries and are behind very expensive defined benefit pensions. It seems hard to argue that police unions are furthering the public interest. Combined with qualified immunity, which is nonsensical overreaching judicial activism, and the Supreme Court ruling officers have no duty to protect [0], American policing seems to fail its public terribly. I've noticed certain YouTube channels seem to easily and consistently get endless examples of obvious police misconduct [1][2][3]. Meanwhile I've previously seen people argue that improving the pay [4] may help, but at least in some states when factoring in overtime and weird contractual rules+bonuses, total pay seems to be already very high. The problems seem to run very deep. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeShaney_v._Winnebago_County https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeShaney_v._Winnebago_County [1] https://www.youtube.com/@AuditTheAudit https://www.youtube.com/@AuditTheAudit [2] https://www.youtube.com/@LongIslandAudit https://www.youtube.com/@LongIslandAudit [3] https://www.youtube.com/@LackLusterMedia https://www.youtube.com/@LackLusterMedia [4]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35235677 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35235677
TaylorAlexander 4y ago
Some leftists argue that police are essentially an extension of state power, and so not labor in the traditional sense. To have a Union that protects state power only serves to doubly oppress the people state power is used against. These people then argue that police unions are a corruption of the idea of unions, and should not exist. Laborers should have Union protection, but not the state. I should say I’m not too well versed in this argument, so this is my vague recollection of its high level points.
- paws 4y ago
  Hadn't seen this argument before but it resonates, thanks. If you have any links to share I'd be curious to read more.
  - TaylorAlexander 4y ago
    Great! I just did a search and came up with a few links. Hope you find them helpful! https://www.teenvogue.com/story/what-to-know-police-unions-labor-movement https://www.teenvogue.com/story/what-to-know-police-unions-l... https://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-trouble-with-police-unions https://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-trou... https://theconversation.com/why-police-unions-are-not-part-of-the-american-labor-movement-142538 https://theconversation.com/why-police-unions-are-not-part-o...
- petesergeant 4y ago
  UK has a statutory police union -- that is, the government set up its own union for them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_Federation_of_England_and_Wales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_Federation_of_England_a... Interesting quote from there: "Police officers hold office and are not employees. Each officer is an independent legal official and not an "agent of the police force, police authority or government". This allows the police their unique status and notionally provides the citizens of the UK a protection from any government that might wish unlawfully to use the police as an instrument against them."
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  I think police should have the ability to collectively negotiate important things like dangerous on the job conditions or poor scheduling or bad pay. Maybe that's not a union but being a police officer shouldn't doom you to unsafe working conditions that you can't fight back against because individuals have no power against a system like that.
porbelm 4y ago
I hope you don't do drugs though because you'll see a completely different side of cops (see what's happening in Norway and Sweden these days)
- rendall 4y ago
  Expand, please?

deleted 4y ago

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paws 4y ago

> The strong protections that police have should be the norm. I agree the US generally doesn't have great worker protections and the situation should probably be improved. On the other hand, when the public seeks redress against police misconduct, they have the unions to thank for serious obstacles they must face. Unions historically have succeeded in hiding disciplinary records from the public, apparently help "bad apples" quickly get re-hired the next town over, inflate salaries and are behind very expensive defined benefit pensions. It seems hard to argue that police unions are furthering the public interest. Combined with qualified immunity, which is nonsensical overreaching judicial activism, and the Supreme Court ruling officers have no duty to protect [0], American policing seems to fail its public terribly. I've noticed certain YouTube channels seem to easily and consistently get endless examples of obvious police misconduct [1][2][3]. Meanwhile I've previously seen people argue that improving the pay [4] may help, but at least in some states when factoring in overtime and weird contractual rules+bonuses, total pay seems to be already very high. The problems seem to run very deep. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeShaney_v._Winnebago_County https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeShaney_v._Winnebago_County [1] https://www.youtube.com/@AuditTheAudit https://www.youtube.com/@AuditTheAudit [2] https://www.youtube.com/@LongIslandAudit https://www.youtube.com/@LongIslandAudit [3] https://www.youtube.com/@LackLusterMedia https://www.youtube.com/@LackLusterMedia [4]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35235677 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35235677

TaylorAlexander 4y ago

Some leftists argue that police are essentially an extension of state power, and so not labor in the traditional sense. To have a Union that protects state power only serves to doubly oppress the people state power is used against. These people then argue that police unions are a corruption of the idea of unions, and should not exist. Laborers should have Union protection, but not the state. I should say I’m not too well versed in this argument, so this is my vague recollection of its high level points.

paws 4y ago
Hadn't seen this argument before but it resonates, thanks. If you have any links to share I'd be curious to read more.
- TaylorAlexander 4y ago
  Great! I just did a search and came up with a few links. Hope you find them helpful! https://www.teenvogue.com/story/what-to-know-police-unions-labor-movement https://www.teenvogue.com/story/what-to-know-police-unions-l... https://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-trouble-with-police-unions https://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-trou... https://theconversation.com/why-police-unions-are-not-part-of-the-american-labor-movement-142538 https://theconversation.com/why-police-unions-are-not-part-o...
petesergeant 4y ago
UK has a statutory police union -- that is, the government set up its own union for them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_Federation_of_England_and_Wales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_Federation_of_England_a... Interesting quote from there: "Police officers hold office and are not employees. Each officer is an independent legal official and not an "agent of the police force, police authority or government". This allows the police their unique status and notionally provides the citizens of the UK a protection from any government that might wish unlawfully to use the police as an instrument against them."
mrguyorama 4y ago
I think police should have the ability to collectively negotiate important things like dangerous on the job conditions or poor scheduling or bad pay. Maybe that's not a union but being a police officer shouldn't doom you to unsafe working conditions that you can't fight back against because individuals have no power against a system like that.

porbelm 4y ago

I hope you don't do drugs though because you'll see a completely different side of cops (see what's happening in Norway and Sweden these days)

rendall 4y ago
Expand, please?