4 ms·

I would be interested in the percentage of 1. Bitcoin (crypto) users who (only) have BC because they hate fiat money 2. Users who have BC because they need it

I would be interested in the percentage of 1. Bitcoin (crypto) users who (only) have BC because they hate fiat money 2. Users who have BC because they need it for illegal gains 3. Opportunistic investors 4. Web3ers I have the unsubstantiated feeling that 1 is overstated.

dragonelite 4y ago
point 4 is pretty much 3.1
throw239849234 4y ago
5. People for whom fiat money is impractical for one or more reasons This category is way larger than people in well-banked Western circles realise. Bitcoin (crypto) is one of the easiest ways for people affected by capital controls or sanctions (on the financial institutions they use, or the country they were unlucky enough to be born in) to freely move their (legally earned, and taxed) money across borders. Since one of the countries with strict capital controls is China, and one of the countries affected by sanctions is Russia, the scale of this usage of crypto is huge.
- apetrovic 4y ago
  [citation needed]
- Nursie 4y ago
  Is sanctions-evasion a good thing? Russia is currently fighting a war of aggression, applying controls on the flow of money in or out of there is one way in which the war machine can be starved.
  - Kinrany 4y ago
    I'm no expert, but restricting the flow of goods seems both necessary and sufficient. The war machine doesn't run on money. A state can always find a way to hide the transactions, on the other hand.
    - Nursie 4y ago
      > The war machine doesn't run on money. I think it might, particularly where the war machine has a partner willing to sell it arms.
      - Kinrany 4y ago
        The partner can sell arms on a loan. There's a million of possible arrangements.
        Nursie 4y ago
        Sure, but that’s going to be less likely if the buyer’s economy is slowly grinding to a halt.
    - b112 4y ago
      A state can always find a way to hide the transactions, on the other hand I think the risk of sanctions, means that while there are work arounds, the cost of those work arounds, and the restrictions on who will do business with you, dramatically increase the costs of certain goods. So sure, the cash moves, but now you pay more. A lot more. Death by 1000 cuts, and all that...
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    Whether sanctions evasion is good depends principally on which side of the sanction line you fall.
    - nosianu 4y ago
      "Aggression" is an objective measure. There is no subjectivity who starts a war and wo is in another country's territory. Those are observable facts. And obviously Russia did not believe Ukraine to be a threat - or they would have not done this haphazard invasion with too little preparation and too few soldiers, so there is no excuse.
      - kingofpandora 4y ago
        The world isn't as black and white as you paint it.
- raverbashing 4y ago
  > 5. People for whom fiat money is impractical for one or more reasons Did the bitcoiners forget about paper bills?
  - jhugo 4y ago
    Both China and Russia have restrictions on taking paper money out of the country, which are much easier to enforce since there's a physical aspect.
- Kbelicius 4y ago
  The idea that some cryptocoin is used by some large but unseen group of people is often talked about but nobody presents the data that show that this group really exists. Is there some real data that shows that this large group actually exists or is it all speculation?
  - atdrummond 4y ago
    The vast majority of the cash changers in Istanbul have tether and BTC logos. There’s a similar situation in Lebanon with BTC’s near ubiquity in remittances. Just because it doesn’t impact your life doesn’t mean this use isn’t self evident elsewhere.
    - polygamous_bat 4y ago
      And a large number of cigarette shops and bodegas in the US have lottery tickets. Is there a clear reason why we assume it's for remittances and not for gambling? I know in South Asia for example most of it is indeed for degenerate gambling/"get rich overnight" schemes.
    - espadrine 4y ago
      This ought to be a verifiable claim, thanks to Street View. I looked around the airport[0] and in[1] various[2] streets[3]. The images are from last year, but they don’t show cash changers with either tether or BTC logos. I did end up finding one[4] after searching through seven, although it is dedicated to cryptocurrencies (it was next to a cash exchange, it isn't one), and its website states this[5]: > Is exchanging cryptocurrency legal in Turkey? Yes, it is legal to buy, sell or trade your crypto money as long as crypto money is not used to pay goods or services. They also mention they only pay out in USD. That makes it sound like the only possible use is for a Russian to convert Rubles to BTC in their home country, exchange BTC with USD there, then go next door to exchange their USD with Lira. That is so heavily tied to sanctions that it can explain why actual cash exchanges don’t support cryptocurrencies. [0]: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9774298,28.820529,2a,75y,324.84h,93.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4r-fkwgLByvJVNPh8HhKFw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9774298,28.820529,2a,75y,324... [1]: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0080274,28.9761991,3a,15y,347.79h,87.86t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfDNXihn3RTiVSMX4g7My1A!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DfDNXihn3RTiVSMX4g7My1A%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D60.385715%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0080274,28.9761991,3a,15y,34... [2]: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0166738,28.9509347,3a,88.5y,55.93h,87.57t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sK-21gY2naC209MU9h6u5cg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DK-21gY2naC209MU9h6u5cg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D63.314533%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0166738,28.9509347,3a,88.5y,... [3]: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0150099,28.9752954,3a,25.8y,52.2h,88.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shFm9pMwP4hs-IzDNrh4DEw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0150099,28.9752954,3a,25.8y,... [4]: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0086973,28.9713568,3a,60y,64.67h,88.3t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sm30kpT5WfruQxBW4ClpgFg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Dm30kpT5WfruQxBW4ClpgFg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D142.76474%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0086973,28.9713568,3a,60y,64... [5]: https://nakitcoins.com/en https://nakitcoins.com/en
- Yizahi 4y ago
  So these people want to avoid law, by avoiding paying taxes or fees of their capital. Which is precisely #2 from the parent poster - "Users who have BC because they need it for illegal gains". I'm not assigning a moral value to this. I'm just commenting that law avoidance is law avoidance, even if you really really want or need to do it. Tokens are useless in comparison to monay for almost any activity, except for law avoidance. For this task they are amazing.
ano88888 4y ago
internationally, 2 using cypto for illegal or unofficial means to transfer money is definitely more than 90%. The rest can share the remaining 10%.
- lowkey 4y ago
  Do you have a source for this figure? It doesn’t align with my experience.
cinntaile 4y ago
This is a false dichotomy with 4 choices instead.
Hamuko 4y ago
Category 1 was probably predominant during the early days of Bitcoin, so the old hands probably still hold onto to that notion.
meltedcapacitor 4y ago
All these categories are like about 5% each, the 80% is normal hard working people who don't like hard working — it is literally hard work! — and to whom crypto gives hope as a magic box in which one throws pennies and dollars come back. It's a bit creepy (the game is in fact zero/negative sum) but then gambling is not generally illegal.
- lowkey 4y ago
  Notably Block, the company in the article enables Bitcoin only, not crypto in general. > the 80% is normal hard working people who don't like hard working Another way to look at it is that 80% of Bitcoiners don’t like the value of their hard work to be continuously debased at a rate of 2-8+% year after year or being subjected to the whims of the Fed’s money printer which recently expanded the entire money supply by over 40% then claimed it wouldn’t drive inflation before claiming that inflation was temporary.
lowkey 4y ago
1. Bitcoin users who hate the fractional reserve model of banking with fiat or the ability for the Fed to print fiat arbitrarily is probably a majority 2. Hold Bitcoin for illegal uses, probably a small minority as there are better options such as Monero for illegal uses 3. Probably a majority of Bitcoiners are opportunistic investors. Why is that bad? 4. Web3ers, a minority of Bitcoiners. You are thinking of altcoins. (Yes Ordinals on Bitcoin are now a thing and are controversial in the Bitcoin community, but most Bitcoiners are hard money proponents who are not interested in NFTs)

dragonelite 4y ago

point 4 is pretty much 3.1

throw239849234 4y ago

5. People for whom fiat money is impractical for one or more reasons This category is way larger than people in well-banked Western circles realise. Bitcoin (crypto) is one of the easiest ways for people affected by capital controls or sanctions (on the financial institutions they use, or the country they were unlucky enough to be born in) to freely move their (legally earned, and taxed) money across borders. Since one of the countries with strict capital controls is China, and one of the countries affected by sanctions is Russia, the scale of this usage of crypto is huge.

apetrovic 4y ago
[citation needed]
Nursie 4y ago
Is sanctions-evasion a good thing? Russia is currently fighting a war of aggression, applying controls on the flow of money in or out of there is one way in which the war machine can be starved.
- Kinrany 4y ago
  I'm no expert, but restricting the flow of goods seems both necessary and sufficient. The war machine doesn't run on money. A state can always find a way to hide the transactions, on the other hand.
  - Nursie 4y ago
    > The war machine doesn't run on money. I think it might, particularly where the war machine has a partner willing to sell it arms.
    - Kinrany 4y ago
      The partner can sell arms on a loan. There's a million of possible arrangements.
      - Nursie 4y ago
        Sure, but that’s going to be less likely if the buyer’s economy is slowly grinding to a halt.
  - b112 4y ago
    A state can always find a way to hide the transactions, on the other hand I think the risk of sanctions, means that while there are work arounds, the cost of those work arounds, and the restrictions on who will do business with you, dramatically increase the costs of certain goods. So sure, the cash moves, but now you pay more. A lot more. Death by 1000 cuts, and all that...
- sokoloff 4y ago
  Whether sanctions evasion is good depends principally on which side of the sanction line you fall.
  - nosianu 4y ago
    "Aggression" is an objective measure. There is no subjectivity who starts a war and wo is in another country's territory. Those are observable facts. And obviously Russia did not believe Ukraine to be a threat - or they would have not done this haphazard invasion with too little preparation and too few soldiers, so there is no excuse.
    - kingofpandora 4y ago
      The world isn't as black and white as you paint it.
raverbashing 4y ago
> 5. People for whom fiat money is impractical for one or more reasons Did the bitcoiners forget about paper bills?
- jhugo 4y ago
  Both China and Russia have restrictions on taking paper money out of the country, which are much easier to enforce since there's a physical aspect.
Kbelicius 4y ago
The idea that some cryptocoin is used by some large but unseen group of people is often talked about but nobody presents the data that show that this group really exists. Is there some real data that shows that this large group actually exists or is it all speculation?
- atdrummond 4y ago
  The vast majority of the cash changers in Istanbul have tether and BTC logos. There’s a similar situation in Lebanon with BTC’s near ubiquity in remittances. Just because it doesn’t impact your life doesn’t mean this use isn’t self evident elsewhere.
  - polygamous_bat 4y ago
    And a large number of cigarette shops and bodegas in the US have lottery tickets. Is there a clear reason why we assume it's for remittances and not for gambling? I know in South Asia for example most of it is indeed for degenerate gambling/"get rich overnight" schemes.
  - espadrine 4y ago
    This ought to be a verifiable claim, thanks to Street View. I looked around the airport[0] and in[1] various[2] streets[3]. The images are from last year, but they don’t show cash changers with either tether or BTC logos. I did end up finding one[4] after searching through seven, although it is dedicated to cryptocurrencies (it was next to a cash exchange, it isn't one), and its website states this[5]: > Is exchanging cryptocurrency legal in Turkey? Yes, it is legal to buy, sell or trade your crypto money as long as crypto money is not used to pay goods or services. They also mention they only pay out in USD. That makes it sound like the only possible use is for a Russian to convert Rubles to BTC in their home country, exchange BTC with USD there, then go next door to exchange their USD with Lira. That is so heavily tied to sanctions that it can explain why actual cash exchanges don’t support cryptocurrencies. [0]: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9774298,28.820529,2a,75y,324.84h,93.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4r-fkwgLByvJVNPh8HhKFw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9774298,28.820529,2a,75y,324... [1]: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0080274,28.9761991,3a,15y,347.79h,87.86t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfDNXihn3RTiVSMX4g7My1A!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DfDNXihn3RTiVSMX4g7My1A%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D60.385715%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0080274,28.9761991,3a,15y,34... [2]: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0166738,28.9509347,3a,88.5y,55.93h,87.57t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sK-21gY2naC209MU9h6u5cg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DK-21gY2naC209MU9h6u5cg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D63.314533%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0166738,28.9509347,3a,88.5y,... [3]: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0150099,28.9752954,3a,25.8y,52.2h,88.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shFm9pMwP4hs-IzDNrh4DEw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0150099,28.9752954,3a,25.8y,... [4]: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0086973,28.9713568,3a,60y,64.67h,88.3t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sm30kpT5WfruQxBW4ClpgFg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Dm30kpT5WfruQxBW4ClpgFg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D142.76474%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0086973,28.9713568,3a,60y,64... [5]: https://nakitcoins.com/en https://nakitcoins.com/en
Yizahi 4y ago
So these people want to avoid law, by avoiding paying taxes or fees of their capital. Which is precisely #2 from the parent poster - "Users who have BC because they need it for illegal gains". I'm not assigning a moral value to this. I'm just commenting that law avoidance is law avoidance, even if you really really want or need to do it. Tokens are useless in comparison to monay for almost any activity, except for law avoidance. For this task they are amazing.

ano88888 4y ago

internationally, 2 using cypto for illegal or unofficial means to transfer money is definitely more than 90%. The rest can share the remaining 10%.

lowkey 4y ago
Do you have a source for this figure? It doesn’t align with my experience.

cinntaile 4y ago

This is a false dichotomy with 4 choices instead.

Hamuko 4y ago

Category 1 was probably predominant during the early days of Bitcoin, so the old hands probably still hold onto to that notion.

meltedcapacitor 4y ago

All these categories are like about 5% each, the 80% is normal hard working people who don't like hard working — it is literally hard work! — and to whom crypto gives hope as a magic box in which one throws pennies and dollars come back. It's a bit creepy (the game is in fact zero/negative sum) but then gambling is not generally illegal.

lowkey 4y ago
Notably Block, the company in the article enables Bitcoin only, not crypto in general. > the 80% is normal hard working people who don't like hard working Another way to look at it is that 80% of Bitcoiners don’t like the value of their hard work to be continuously debased at a rate of 2-8+% year after year or being subjected to the whims of the Fed’s money printer which recently expanded the entire money supply by over 40% then claimed it wouldn’t drive inflation before claiming that inflation was temporary.

lowkey 4y ago

1. Bitcoin users who hate the fractional reserve model of banking with fiat or the ability for the Fed to print fiat arbitrarily is probably a majority 2. Hold Bitcoin for illegal uses, probably a small minority as there are better options such as Monero for illegal uses 3. Probably a majority of Bitcoiners are opportunistic investors. Why is that bad? 4. Web3ers, a minority of Bitcoiners. You are thinking of altcoins. (Yes Ordinals on Bitcoin are now a thing and are controversial in the Bitcoin community, but most Bitcoiners are hard money proponents who are not interested in NFTs)