20 ms·

Yeah I'm sure new replacement cops will be awesome at respecting civil rights

busterarm 4y ago
Losing your job is disrupting to anyone. Having the entire previous department fired as an example should be a deterrent. Anyone taking the job knows that they're under a microscope. All we can do is try.
- hjek 4y ago
  We can try to abolish police.
  - ungamedplayer 4y ago
    I'm sure thats going to work.
    - mordae 4y ago
      As long as we also make sure people aren't driven to violent crime under threat of starvation and loss of home, I am all for it. Police won't protect us from the pathologic thiefs and murderers anyway. Those have installed it. Last time I had to call cops was when two drunk people started brawling in a bus. One fell asleep and the second, driven to desperate acts by prolonged homelessness tried to steal his phone. In the end, the victim decided that the best course of action after reclaiming his phone was to kick now lying down thief until satisfied. I and another passenger have stepped in, restrained the aggressive phone owner. We have gotten 4 of us out of the bus. We told the phone owner repeatedly to verify that his phone is OK, in order for him to realize that no harm has been done. We have talked him down. He was still inclined to (way less fervently) take revenge. I had to choose between getting confrontational and sending him home to sleep it off "or else" and calling the cops. Since the first option would put me at risk of being caught breaking the law, I had to call cops. Cops came in sirens blazing, 3 cars, acting all high and mighty. "Your IDs" and shit. In the end, the phone owner has not even been told not to kick other people. The homeless person has not been checked by a medical professional. He was drunk, might have had some ribs broken, but none of those 7 "public servants" bothered to check. I asked if they were at least giving him a lift to wherever he was residing. "We are not taxi." Fucking useless.
      - goldenkey 4y ago
        Police usually make things worse when called. Often shooting or restraining the caller instead of the attacker.
  - nailer 4y ago
    This hurts poor communities, who generally don’t support defending police when asked.
    - nailer 4y ago
      defunding, not defending, thanks autocorrect.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
    This can quickly turn very political so without me assuming, would you be willing to elaborate a little bit on that proposal? How do you see it work out in practice and what would be your plan for the day after?
- Broken_Hippo 4y ago
  Firing cops is a step. Replacing cops with the same breed of cops with no difference in training is just a show. The fired cops will just get jobs in other departments. Cops won't be better trained, procedures that lead to this won't be changed. No real change is going to happen. Firing cops at this point is just theater. It isn't trying, it is honestly just more of the same. It isn't likely that they fire the entire department either, and it will do nothing to take care of the folks that were elected in (sherriff and prosecutor, for example).
  - Beldin 4y ago
    As parent points out, there is a difference in training: the previous department would've been fired in its entirety. That's a fairly impactful piece of training.
  - faeriechangling 4y ago
    What changes in training do you think would have prevented this? Do you think the cops didn't know that it was wrong for them to use home invasions to intimidate critics? >it will do nothing to take care of the folks that were elected in (sherriff and prosecutor, for example). I won't deny that rot starts at the top, but part of that rot is never firing misbehaving employees. You emphasise training, I emphasise learning, and the only way to learn is not fiddling around with the curriculum, it's not giving cops an extra year of training. What helps people learn is bad cops fucking around and finding out. You can give people as much training as you want, but if they see other cops getting away with this gang nonsense, they will learn that you can do that and nothing bad will come of it.
    - belorn 4y ago
      If we assume there was a criminal conspiracy among the police to knowingly use fabricated evidence, then the issue is not so much with training (through an ethics class might help). The main issue would be structural in the police organization that allowed a criminal conspiracy to exist, and a significant lack of effective regulations.
    - RHSeeger 4y ago
- squarefoot 4y ago
  Agreed, but don't expect any big change until they completely rethink the selection methods adding deep psychological profiling. Albeit to a different degree, this happens in many countries as well, including mine, and having known several officers I'm sure it's related to the lack of proper selection: they very often hire people who apply because they "need" to wear an uniform and exercise power over others, then they give them some sort of immunity, which can only lead to disasters.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
    Eh. Maybe? I personally want to say it has something to do with Douglas Adams principle of power: “The major problem—one of the major problems, for there are several—one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them. To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.” I will use myself as an example. I absolutely do not want to be a cop despite having a relatively strong moral compass, because I know for a fact that I will agonize over small things and believe most excuses thrown at me. More than that, I do not think taxpayers would want me to be a cop, because I am lenient ( which also why I did not really enjoy having a position of authority in my previous job ). I mostly assume everyone will do what has to be done. And sadly, that is not nor has ever been the case. Uniform is just a symbol of that power.
- pawelmurias 4y ago
  If the whole department was fired rather then the guilty why this be a strong indication anyone is individually monitoring your behaviour?
atoav 4y ago
Why the sarcasm? Someone does a bad job, get rid of them. How do you imagine cop culture will change? By letting them get away with everything and sticking your head into the sand? Ah and before you answer: most of use who are not in the US live in places where police misconduct is much less of an problem, so obviously it can work better. The entire German police force fires less bullets during their patrols and missions in a year than e.g. the NYC police force alone. Sometimes single cops in the US fire more bullets alone than the entire German police force. This is even hard to compare, because the Germans have numbers for every bullet fired at a person during service, bullets fired for warning shots, bullets that hit, bullets that did not etc. That data is wildly mixed and unreliable in the US depending on the state. If you want to have a police force you can trust they must not be above the law and the law must be even stricter, the standards even higher for them than for the rest of the population. That means longer and better education and training, knowing the law, but also strict measures when police officers break the rules or there is even just the slightest doubt about their version of events. In many police departments in the US the problem is essentially that there are so many bad apples that every good apple that comes is spoiled or cannot do good. This can only be changed be decisive action from the top.
- bambax 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - rhn_mk1 4y ago
    > Because there are no good cops? Seriously, this is the mother of all generalizations.
    - bheadmaster 4y ago
      Here's the grandmother: There are no good people with power. Also known as, "power corrupts". You give a person power without consequences, you turn them into a ticking time bomb, and the timer determines when will they turn into a self-serving piece of shit.
mrcartmeneses 4y ago
Whether or not any new police force is better or worse is by-the-by. The current department isn’t for for purpose and needs to be disbanded.
jjallen 4y ago
Replacing them would be better than doing nothing.

Losing your job is disrupting to anyone. Having the entire previous department fired as an example should be a deterrent. Anyone taking the job knows that they're under a microscope. All we can do is try.

hjek 4y ago
We can try to abolish police.
- ungamedplayer 4y ago
  I'm sure thats going to work.
  - mordae 4y ago
    As long as we also make sure people aren't driven to violent crime under threat of starvation and loss of home, I am all for it. Police won't protect us from the pathologic thiefs and murderers anyway. Those have installed it. Last time I had to call cops was when two drunk people started brawling in a bus. One fell asleep and the second, driven to desperate acts by prolonged homelessness tried to steal his phone. In the end, the victim decided that the best course of action after reclaiming his phone was to kick now lying down thief until satisfied. I and another passenger have stepped in, restrained the aggressive phone owner. We have gotten 4 of us out of the bus. We told the phone owner repeatedly to verify that his phone is OK, in order for him to realize that no harm has been done. We have talked him down. He was still inclined to (way less fervently) take revenge. I had to choose between getting confrontational and sending him home to sleep it off "or else" and calling the cops. Since the first option would put me at risk of being caught breaking the law, I had to call cops. Cops came in sirens blazing, 3 cars, acting all high and mighty. "Your IDs" and shit. In the end, the phone owner has not even been told not to kick other people. The homeless person has not been checked by a medical professional. He was drunk, might have had some ribs broken, but none of those 7 "public servants" bothered to check. I asked if they were at least giving him a lift to wherever he was residing. "We are not taxi." Fucking useless.
    - goldenkey 4y ago
      Police usually make things worse when called. Often shooting or restraining the caller instead of the attacker.
- nailer 4y ago
  This hurts poor communities, who generally don’t support defending police when asked.
  - nailer 4y ago
    defunding, not defending, thanks autocorrect.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  This can quickly turn very political so without me assuming, would you be willing to elaborate a little bit on that proposal? How do you see it work out in practice and what would be your plan for the day after?
Broken_Hippo 4y ago
Firing cops is a step. Replacing cops with the same breed of cops with no difference in training is just a show. The fired cops will just get jobs in other departments. Cops won't be better trained, procedures that lead to this won't be changed. No real change is going to happen. Firing cops at this point is just theater. It isn't trying, it is honestly just more of the same. It isn't likely that they fire the entire department either, and it will do nothing to take care of the folks that were elected in (sherriff and prosecutor, for example).
- Beldin 4y ago
  As parent points out, there is a difference in training: the previous department would've been fired in its entirety. That's a fairly impactful piece of training.
- faeriechangling 4y ago
  What changes in training do you think would have prevented this? Do you think the cops didn't know that it was wrong for them to use home invasions to intimidate critics? >it will do nothing to take care of the folks that were elected in (sherriff and prosecutor, for example). I won't deny that rot starts at the top, but part of that rot is never firing misbehaving employees. You emphasise training, I emphasise learning, and the only way to learn is not fiddling around with the curriculum, it's not giving cops an extra year of training. What helps people learn is bad cops fucking around and finding out. You can give people as much training as you want, but if they see other cops getting away with this gang nonsense, they will learn that you can do that and nothing bad will come of it.
  - belorn 4y ago
    If we assume there was a criminal conspiracy among the police to knowingly use fabricated evidence, then the issue is not so much with training (through an ethics class might help). The main issue would be structural in the police organization that allowed a criminal conspiracy to exist, and a significant lack of effective regulations.
  - RHSeeger 4y ago
squarefoot 4y ago
Agreed, but don't expect any big change until they completely rethink the selection methods adding deep psychological profiling. Albeit to a different degree, this happens in many countries as well, including mine, and having known several officers I'm sure it's related to the lack of proper selection: they very often hire people who apply because they "need" to wear an uniform and exercise power over others, then they give them some sort of immunity, which can only lead to disasters.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  Eh. Maybe? I personally want to say it has something to do with Douglas Adams principle of power: “The major problem—one of the major problems, for there are several—one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them. To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.” I will use myself as an example. I absolutely do not want to be a cop despite having a relatively strong moral compass, because I know for a fact that I will agonize over small things and believe most excuses thrown at me. More than that, I do not think taxpayers would want me to be a cop, because I am lenient ( which also why I did not really enjoy having a position of authority in my previous job ). I mostly assume everyone will do what has to be done. And sadly, that is not nor has ever been the case. Uniform is just a symbol of that power.
pawelmurias 4y ago
If the whole department was fired rather then the guilty why this be a strong indication anyone is individually monitoring your behaviour?

atoav 4y ago

Why the sarcasm? Someone does a bad job, get rid of them. How do you imagine cop culture will change? By letting them get away with everything and sticking your head into the sand? Ah and before you answer: most of use who are not in the US live in places where police misconduct is much less of an problem, so obviously it can work better. The entire German police force fires less bullets during their patrols and missions in a year than e.g. the NYC police force alone. Sometimes single cops in the US fire more bullets alone than the entire German police force. This is even hard to compare, because the Germans have numbers for every bullet fired at a person during service, bullets fired for warning shots, bullets that hit, bullets that did not etc. That data is wildly mixed and unreliable in the US depending on the state. If you want to have a police force you can trust they must not be above the law and the law must be even stricter, the standards even higher for them than for the rest of the population. That means longer and better education and training, knowing the law, but also strict measures when police officers break the rules or there is even just the slightest doubt about their version of events. In many police departments in the US the problem is essentially that there are so many bad apples that every good apple that comes is spoiled or cannot do good. This can only be changed be decisive action from the top.

bambax 4y ago
[flagged]
- rhn_mk1 4y ago
  > Because there are no good cops? Seriously, this is the mother of all generalizations.
  - bheadmaster 4y ago
    Here's the grandmother: There are no good people with power. Also known as, "power corrupts". You give a person power without consequences, you turn them into a ticking time bomb, and the timer determines when will they turn into a self-serving piece of shit.

mrcartmeneses 4y ago

Whether or not any new police force is better or worse is by-the-by. The current department isn’t for for purpose and needs to be disbanded.

jjallen 4y ago

Replacing them would be better than doing nothing.