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Note, the words "Introvert" and "Extrovert" should die. It's like talking about "fatties" and "anorexics". Most people are normal. Introversion (or it's opposit

by wisty 15y ago

Note, the words "Introvert" and "Extrovert" should die. It's like talking about "fatties" and "anorexics". Most people are normal. Introversion (or it's opposite, extroversion) is more or less normally distributed, unlike the bimodal distribution suggested by using polar terms. "Male" and "Female" are examples of bimodal attributes, for which it can be pragmatic to pretend there's only two extremes. Even then, the folk who don't fit so well in either category warrant a special mention. Spare a thought for the normal people who don't have 200 real friends (and 20,000 Facebook friends); or live alone in their mother's basement. (Not that introverts necessarily have no friends, which is a whole new can of misconceptions brought on by Myers-Briggs, as explained by Cosmopolitan in the mid-80s).

jonnathanson 15y ago
Hear, hear. It also bears mentioning that virtually nobody understands what it actually means to be "introverted" or "extroverted." Introversion does not necessarily imply social awkwardness, nerdiness, or even shyness, per se. Rather, to be introverted is simply to prefer fewer or smaller social activities -- not out of a sense of being unable to handle such things, but out of a general preference for less social stimulation. Popular (mis)usage, especially in the US, presents introverts as somehow flawed or unwhole, while extroverts are properly adjusted -- as if the standard is set by the extroverts, and everyone who falls short of that mark lands somewhere on the Autism spectrum. (It's reached the point where many people these days are afraid even to describe themselves as "introverted," lest others assume they're somehow damaged). It's time to do away with such nonsense.
- nodemaker 15y ago
  Not trying to be pedantic but the literal meaning of introvert is someone who looks inside for approval or decision making.(Etymology "Intro"-in vert-"look"). You can be a very social person and have tons of friends etc etc but at the end of the day if you are not too affected by other's opinions about you then you are an introvert.Introverts are totally okay with being alone for extended periods of time as they very much enjoy the conversation they are having with themselves.But they can also go out and talk to people confidently if they so desire.(Yes there is probably some correlation between introversion and social anxiety especially in young people). On the other hand, extroverts who are looking outward for approval and decisions get depressed when they are lonely.This is not necessarily a bad thing.Personally I would have saved so much time if I had bounced my crazy ideas of someone else before going and implementing them. When it comes to leadership, both can be good leaders.A brilliant example of a very introverted leader is Steve Jobs and an excellent example of an extroverted leader is President Barack Obama.
  - jonnathanson 15y ago
    Don't worry about, or apologize for, being pedantic. I rather enjoy it. While I appreciate your point about the literal meanings of the words "introvert" and "extrovert," I would submit that the axis around which both personality types hinge is not so much approval-seeking in specific, but rather, stimulus-seeking in general. Hence, my point about introverts needing or seeking less social stimulus, and extroverts needing and/or seeking more social stimulus. In the case you cite: "You can be a very social person and have tons of friends etc etc but at the end of the day if you are not too affected by other's opinions about you then you are an introvert." This is not wholly correct. Introverts can be affected by others' opinions, and indeed, some are very affected. I do agree, however, that it is entirely possible for an introvert to be sociable and to have a lot of friends. Conversely, it is entirely possible to find extroverts who lack social graces and thus, can count few friends. On the whole, however, I believe you and I are more in agreement than disagreement. I think we could both agree that the words have been twisted and overused demotically. And perhaps we'd also agree, as I believe, that the division into the world of "introverts" and "extroverts" as binary personality types represents a somewhat primitive and unsophisticated view of things -- regardless of how we choose to define those words.
    - nodemaker 15y ago
      Yes I do agree on those things.I think MBTI somewhat tries to differentiate between types of introverts.For example the introvert INTP is very different from the introvert ISFJ. I guess I was referring to the I(NT) type introvert.The I(SF) or I(NF) type introverts are very different personalities indeed.
  - bh42222 15y ago
    You can be a very social person and have tons of friends etc etc but at the end of the day if you are not too affected by other's opinions about you then you are an introvert. Source? I am introvert. And I also I am not affected by other people's opinions. Those two have nothing in common. Me being an introvert is not responsible for this. I also have a lot of friends and by all objective measures am very social. But after a lot of very fun and enjoyable social interaction I feel mentally tired and need alone time to recharge. That is ALL that introversion is. Extroversion on the other hand means you feel invigorated after social interaction. This has nothing to do with approval seeking behavior which is an entirely separate personality trait, which can be found in both extroverts and introverts.
lusr 15y ago
Even then I take issue with the terms. By all popular accounts I was extremely "introverted" when I was younger. Having made a concious decision to change certain aspects of my life, I am now far more balanced, and I have more than one story that makes "extroverts" blush. Not once have I read an article that discusses introversion and extroversion as flexible personality traits.
- wisty 15y ago
  > Not once have I read an article that discusses introversion and extroversion as flexible personality traits. Myers-Briggs assumes that people have "types", which is not very nuanced. Anything which references Big Five Personality Factors is IMO better (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits). It also has better traits (or types) - it's quite useful to think of people having a certain level of Introversion, Conscientiousness, Openness to experience (aka inquisitiveness, previously known as "culture" but that's not PC), Neuroticism and Agreeableness. All those traits are interesting. The main advantage of Myers-Briggs seems to be that its traits are all value-neutral (while Openness to experience is basically good, and Neuroticism is basically bad), and the Keirsey Temperament Sorter claims it can sort you into career bins (like "Fieldmarshal" or "Healer"), and compare you to famous people whos behavior seems "consistent" with that personality type. Perhaps someone should write some book classifying historical figures into Big 5 categories.
- arguesalot 15y ago
  Interesting that you consciously chose to be more "outgoing". I believe that (ex-)introverts still have less need for others. Do you believe that your needs have changed too, e.g would you be OK if you went back to living like an introvert tomorrow as you did in the past or would you be overly depressed about it?
  - bh42222 15y ago
    would you be OK if you went back to living like an introvert tomorrow Being alone and not having a lot of friends is NOT introversion! Seriously, this is like calling narcissistic personality disorder extroversion. Those things are not the same!
arguesalot 15y ago
Some people often feel that the drawbacks of social interaction outweigh the benefits. Some other people feel the opposite. At one point both choose to believe that social interactions are or are not of high value, and through daily social friction it soon becomes a permanent pattern of behaviour in their lives. Usually all this happens unconsciously in early life, but as time goes on it becomes conscious why they choose this or that. So i believe in most cases it's a voluntarily accepted pattern, and it has binary qualities. By the way, introverted people should not be stereotyped as living with their mothers, they are successful enough not to and, indeed most of them value their independence above all.
- wisty 15y ago
  There's some types of social behavior which are binary - you can speak in public or not, chat up girls (or boys) or not, and go to a Star Trek Convention without getting too freaked out. It's contextual. But I think people tend to have roughly normally distributed general social skills. There's very few people who's social skills are so bad they don't develop them further. People tend to develop their skills to the point where they are confortable with the kind of interaction they want.
spodek 15y ago
I concur. Labels add no value and hold people back from improving their lives. Dealing with groups requires one set of skills. Dealing with solitude requires another (with much overlap). If you don't have skills for one situation you will avoid it. Once you acquire the skills to handle it, you'll be able to handle either. If you can only handle one now that doesn't mean you can't handle the other, it just means you haven't yet. When you have the skills and experience to handle one situation you will enjoy it and look forward to it, either one. When you don't you will not look forward to it and feel anxiety or fear from it. You don't have to be stuck that way. The same with any other set of skills. I once didn't have skills to handle groups. Now I do. Labeling me an extrovert would have held me back from learning skills and gaining experience to handle groups. I was anxious and afraid of going to the gym before I started going, but I wasn't a non-gym person. I just had to build up skills and experience.
108 15y ago
@wisty ++1. I dont like talking too much around certain people (too argumentative, talk from their @r$3 just to hear their own voices) but I am too polite to tell them that but they are ofcourse free to stick the "introvert-notsocial" tag on me. Fun! </sarcasm>

by wisty 15y ago

jonnathanson 15y ago

Hear, hear. It also bears mentioning that virtually nobody understands what it actually means to be "introverted" or "extroverted." Introversion does not necessarily imply social awkwardness, nerdiness, or even shyness, per se. Rather, to be introverted is simply to prefer fewer or smaller social activities -- not out of a sense of being unable to handle such things, but out of a general preference for less social stimulation. Popular (mis)usage, especially in the US, presents introverts as somehow flawed or unwhole, while extroverts are properly adjusted -- as if the standard is set by the extroverts, and everyone who falls short of that mark lands somewhere on the Autism spectrum. (It's reached the point where many people these days are afraid even to describe themselves as "introverted," lest others assume they're somehow damaged). It's time to do away with such nonsense.

nodemaker 15y ago
Not trying to be pedantic but the literal meaning of introvert is someone who looks inside for approval or decision making.(Etymology "Intro"-in vert-"look"). You can be a very social person and have tons of friends etc etc but at the end of the day if you are not too affected by other's opinions about you then you are an introvert.Introverts are totally okay with being alone for extended periods of time as they very much enjoy the conversation they are having with themselves.But they can also go out and talk to people confidently if they so desire.(Yes there is probably some correlation between introversion and social anxiety especially in young people). On the other hand, extroverts who are looking outward for approval and decisions get depressed when they are lonely.This is not necessarily a bad thing.Personally I would have saved so much time if I had bounced my crazy ideas of someone else before going and implementing them. When it comes to leadership, both can be good leaders.A brilliant example of a very introverted leader is Steve Jobs and an excellent example of an extroverted leader is President Barack Obama.
- jonnathanson 15y ago
  Don't worry about, or apologize for, being pedantic. I rather enjoy it. While I appreciate your point about the literal meanings of the words "introvert" and "extrovert," I would submit that the axis around which both personality types hinge is not so much approval-seeking in specific, but rather, stimulus-seeking in general. Hence, my point about introverts needing or seeking less social stimulus, and extroverts needing and/or seeking more social stimulus. In the case you cite: "You can be a very social person and have tons of friends etc etc but at the end of the day if you are not too affected by other's opinions about you then you are an introvert." This is not wholly correct. Introverts can be affected by others' opinions, and indeed, some are very affected. I do agree, however, that it is entirely possible for an introvert to be sociable and to have a lot of friends. Conversely, it is entirely possible to find extroverts who lack social graces and thus, can count few friends. On the whole, however, I believe you and I are more in agreement than disagreement. I think we could both agree that the words have been twisted and overused demotically. And perhaps we'd also agree, as I believe, that the division into the world of "introverts" and "extroverts" as binary personality types represents a somewhat primitive and unsophisticated view of things -- regardless of how we choose to define those words.
  - nodemaker 15y ago
    Yes I do agree on those things.I think MBTI somewhat tries to differentiate between types of introverts.For example the introvert INTP is very different from the introvert ISFJ. I guess I was referring to the I(NT) type introvert.The I(SF) or I(NF) type introverts are very different personalities indeed.
- bh42222 15y ago
  You can be a very social person and have tons of friends etc etc but at the end of the day if you are not too affected by other's opinions about you then you are an introvert. Source? I am introvert. And I also I am not affected by other people's opinions. Those two have nothing in common. Me being an introvert is not responsible for this. I also have a lot of friends and by all objective measures am very social. But after a lot of very fun and enjoyable social interaction I feel mentally tired and need alone time to recharge. That is ALL that introversion is. Extroversion on the other hand means you feel invigorated after social interaction. This has nothing to do with approval seeking behavior which is an entirely separate personality trait, which can be found in both extroverts and introverts.

lusr 15y ago

Even then I take issue with the terms. By all popular accounts I was extremely "introverted" when I was younger. Having made a concious decision to change certain aspects of my life, I am now far more balanced, and I have more than one story that makes "extroverts" blush. Not once have I read an article that discusses introversion and extroversion as flexible personality traits.

wisty 15y ago
> Not once have I read an article that discusses introversion and extroversion as flexible personality traits. Myers-Briggs assumes that people have "types", which is not very nuanced. Anything which references Big Five Personality Factors is IMO better (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits). It also has better traits (or types) - it's quite useful to think of people having a certain level of Introversion, Conscientiousness, Openness to experience (aka inquisitiveness, previously known as "culture" but that's not PC), Neuroticism and Agreeableness. All those traits are interesting. The main advantage of Myers-Briggs seems to be that its traits are all value-neutral (while Openness to experience is basically good, and Neuroticism is basically bad), and the Keirsey Temperament Sorter claims it can sort you into career bins (like "Fieldmarshal" or "Healer"), and compare you to famous people whos behavior seems "consistent" with that personality type. Perhaps someone should write some book classifying historical figures into Big 5 categories.
arguesalot 15y ago
Interesting that you consciously chose to be more "outgoing". I believe that (ex-)introverts still have less need for others. Do you believe that your needs have changed too, e.g would you be OK if you went back to living like an introvert tomorrow as you did in the past or would you be overly depressed about it?
- bh42222 15y ago
  would you be OK if you went back to living like an introvert tomorrow Being alone and not having a lot of friends is NOT introversion! Seriously, this is like calling narcissistic personality disorder extroversion. Those things are not the same!

arguesalot 15y ago

Some people often feel that the drawbacks of social interaction outweigh the benefits. Some other people feel the opposite. At one point both choose to believe that social interactions are or are not of high value, and through daily social friction it soon becomes a permanent pattern of behaviour in their lives. Usually all this happens unconsciously in early life, but as time goes on it becomes conscious why they choose this or that. So i believe in most cases it's a voluntarily accepted pattern, and it has binary qualities. By the way, introverted people should not be stereotyped as living with their mothers, they are successful enough not to and, indeed most of them value their independence above all.

wisty 15y ago
There's some types of social behavior which are binary - you can speak in public or not, chat up girls (or boys) or not, and go to a Star Trek Convention without getting too freaked out. It's contextual. But I think people tend to have roughly normally distributed general social skills. There's very few people who's social skills are so bad they don't develop them further. People tend to develop their skills to the point where they are confortable with the kind of interaction they want.

spodek 15y ago

I concur. Labels add no value and hold people back from improving their lives. Dealing with groups requires one set of skills. Dealing with solitude requires another (with much overlap). If you don't have skills for one situation you will avoid it. Once you acquire the skills to handle it, you'll be able to handle either. If you can only handle one now that doesn't mean you can't handle the other, it just means you haven't yet. When you have the skills and experience to handle one situation you will enjoy it and look forward to it, either one. When you don't you will not look forward to it and feel anxiety or fear from it. You don't have to be stuck that way. The same with any other set of skills. I once didn't have skills to handle groups. Now I do. Labeling me an extrovert would have held me back from learning skills and gaining experience to handle groups. I was anxious and afraid of going to the gym before I started going, but I wasn't a non-gym person. I just had to build up skills and experience.

108 15y ago

@wisty ++1. I dont like talking too much around certain people (too argumentative, talk from their @r$3 just to hear their own voices) but I am too polite to tell them that but they are ofcourse free to stick the "introvert-notsocial" tag on me. Fun! </sarcasm>