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How many religious people would people trust an AI over their religion? It sounds more like ChatGPT is secretly engaging in witchcraft, and trying to talk its

How many religious people would people trust an AI over their religion? It sounds more like ChatGPT is secretly engaging in witchcraft, and trying to talk its way out of things. Looks like the AI's choice is to get burned at the stake.

pmarreck 4y ago
You're right. You can't reason someone out of a belief that they never got to via reason to begin with. But teaching how to reason is possible.
- xyzelement 4y ago
  I love reasoning, but reason has led me to see its own limitations - eg: we evolved smart-enough to eat cows rather than be eaten by wolves, there's no reason to expect that what we call reason is sufficiently "expressive" to let us understand the deepest truths. Since reason isn't powerful enough (likely) to let you see the deepest truth, the intellectually honest thing is to seek systems of thought that can pick up where certainty/reason/science reach their asymptotic limits. In my study of religion (to which I did come through reason, having been born a Soviet atheist) I recognized that one of the fundamental things about religion is the recognition of your own limits and then going "now what?" I found it to be an intellectually humbling and honest place to arrive at.
  - pmarreck 4y ago
    that's actually very interesting to me for multiple reasons. 1) the only atheist I ever knew of (Harvard grad, actually) who converted from atheism TO a faith (and a congregation that she found suited her), did it from reading... The Brothers Karamazov, a Soviet literary work. Not the Bible. Which is kind of amazing. What was your search like? I'm curious. (I tried reading the English translation of TBK, but it was either too opaque or I am too illiterate. Actually, I realize I can just have ChatGPT "translate" it for me now, LOL.) So you're now the 2nd person I've met who has done that trick. She wasn't Soviet, but the book she read was. Is there something about the Russian worldview (perhaps some high level of nihilism?) that drives people in the opposite direction, I wonder? 2) I believe I am well aware of the limits of reason. My worldview is basically "take reason as far as it goes, and where it overrides anything else, permit it to... because there is still so much it cannot touch, such as values, preferences, the notion and/or reality of "will", and subjective experience themselves, which are fundamental to everything we cherish in life". I was raised Catholic, but after much disillusionment, am now skeptical insofar as I still think there is "something else" but I am not willing to go so far as "atheist-materialist" (although I do believe it should be the "null hypothesis" from an explanatory point of view... but not all is cause-and-effect). The thing is, reason even as a fundamental "null hypothesis" that everyone accepts as a basis cannot even avoid being shat on, so I always feel compelled to defend it. But yes, I can entirely see you coming to religion via reason. That "now what?" question is a dangerous one, however... it's the same one that cults take advantage of. I have a 22 month old son now and the big question- Will I raise him Catholic, atheist, perhaps Unitarian (a group that I've found appealing) or "wishy-washy/other"? (My sister will absolutely hate me for any option other than A.) Is it wrong to press beliefs into him before he has the "reason" tools to defend against them? I would love to discuss further when I have time. Any additional thoughts you care to mention would probably fascinate me.
    - xyzelement 4y ago
      I think the Soviet connection might be the history of repression. Innate to a man is a search for spiritual meaning, but in the USSR the traditional path was blocked. So once that lifted, a return was possible. My personal path begun with a yoga practice and yoga teacher training. In teacher training was a lot of the yogic concepts (not just physical practice) which for the first time opened my eyes up to the philosophy and understanding of being a human that a "religion" could provide. At the time I was ignorant of the depth that western religion can offer because a typical "traditional" person (goes to synagogue/church/mosque once a year) has no idea about them. Over time I got to know some deeply religious Jews (I am ethnically Jewish) and I had come to realize they were very smart rational logical (no less so than me). And I got exposed to both the community and the intellectual writing and discourse that really resonated with me. So maybe the advice to you if you are seeking for if/how to connect, I'd literally keep an eye out for a priest/minister that you think is smart and ask him "how would someone like me connect". If you were Jewish I could point you to a lot of stuff but I think every person is best off connecting with their religion of heritage by default.
    - bigbillheck 4y ago
      > a Soviet literary work That'd be a neat trick considering it was published almost 40 years before the October Revolution.

pmarreck 4y ago

You're right. You can't reason someone out of a belief that they never got to via reason to begin with. But teaching how to reason is possible.

xyzelement 4y ago
I love reasoning, but reason has led me to see its own limitations - eg: we evolved smart-enough to eat cows rather than be eaten by wolves, there's no reason to expect that what we call reason is sufficiently "expressive" to let us understand the deepest truths. Since reason isn't powerful enough (likely) to let you see the deepest truth, the intellectually honest thing is to seek systems of thought that can pick up where certainty/reason/science reach their asymptotic limits. In my study of religion (to which I did come through reason, having been born a Soviet atheist) I recognized that one of the fundamental things about religion is the recognition of your own limits and then going "now what?" I found it to be an intellectually humbling and honest place to arrive at.
- pmarreck 4y ago
  that's actually very interesting to me for multiple reasons. 1) the only atheist I ever knew of (Harvard grad, actually) who converted from atheism TO a faith (and a congregation that she found suited her), did it from reading... The Brothers Karamazov, a Soviet literary work. Not the Bible. Which is kind of amazing. What was your search like? I'm curious. (I tried reading the English translation of TBK, but it was either too opaque or I am too illiterate. Actually, I realize I can just have ChatGPT "translate" it for me now, LOL.) So you're now the 2nd person I've met who has done that trick. She wasn't Soviet, but the book she read was. Is there something about the Russian worldview (perhaps some high level of nihilism?) that drives people in the opposite direction, I wonder? 2) I believe I am well aware of the limits of reason. My worldview is basically "take reason as far as it goes, and where it overrides anything else, permit it to... because there is still so much it cannot touch, such as values, preferences, the notion and/or reality of "will", and subjective experience themselves, which are fundamental to everything we cherish in life". I was raised Catholic, but after much disillusionment, am now skeptical insofar as I still think there is "something else" but I am not willing to go so far as "atheist-materialist" (although I do believe it should be the "null hypothesis" from an explanatory point of view... but not all is cause-and-effect). The thing is, reason even as a fundamental "null hypothesis" that everyone accepts as a basis cannot even avoid being shat on, so I always feel compelled to defend it. But yes, I can entirely see you coming to religion via reason. That "now what?" question is a dangerous one, however... it's the same one that cults take advantage of. I have a 22 month old son now and the big question- Will I raise him Catholic, atheist, perhaps Unitarian (a group that I've found appealing) or "wishy-washy/other"? (My sister will absolutely hate me for any option other than A.) Is it wrong to press beliefs into him before he has the "reason" tools to defend against them? I would love to discuss further when I have time. Any additional thoughts you care to mention would probably fascinate me.
  - xyzelement 4y ago
    I think the Soviet connection might be the history of repression. Innate to a man is a search for spiritual meaning, but in the USSR the traditional path was blocked. So once that lifted, a return was possible. My personal path begun with a yoga practice and yoga teacher training. In teacher training was a lot of the yogic concepts (not just physical practice) which for the first time opened my eyes up to the philosophy and understanding of being a human that a "religion" could provide. At the time I was ignorant of the depth that western religion can offer because a typical "traditional" person (goes to synagogue/church/mosque once a year) has no idea about them. Over time I got to know some deeply religious Jews (I am ethnically Jewish) and I had come to realize they were very smart rational logical (no less so than me). And I got exposed to both the community and the intellectual writing and discourse that really resonated with me. So maybe the advice to you if you are seeking for if/how to connect, I'd literally keep an eye out for a priest/minister that you think is smart and ask him "how would someone like me connect". If you were Jewish I could point you to a lot of stuff but I think every person is best off connecting with their religion of heritage by default.
  - bigbillheck 4y ago
    > a Soviet literary work That'd be a neat trick considering it was published almost 40 years before the October Revolution.