6 ms·

F-150 Lightning Recall Due to SK Cells

63 points by imtig3rman 4y ago

notlukesky 4y ago
Aren’t really large batteries still a fire hazard. I remember when they even became issues for Boeing Dreamliner planes: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Boeing_787_Dreamliner_grounding https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Boeing_787_Dreamliner_g...
- bluGill 4y ago
  Sure, just like large fuel tanks are a fire hazard. We have to take the correct precautions. In the case of batteries that is make things with the right margin of safety, and be careful how we charge. (probably more, I'm not a battery expert)
  - magicalhippo 4y ago
    Battery chemistry is another one. There are chemistries[1] that are much less, if at all, prone to go up in flames on their own. Of course there's usually always a tradeoff with other properties, like weight or cost. [1]: For example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery#Safety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery...
  - corbulo 4y ago
    Batteries are a much greater hazard than gas fires. Not even close. To start, you can actually put gas fires out with a reasonable amount of water before its fuel source is burnt up.
- londons_explore 4y ago
  Typically battery fires with no obvious cause are due to a fault in the manufacturing process. Big batteries are more vulnerable simply because there are more cells to potentially have a defect.
codazoda 4y ago
Ford recalled 18 vehicles. It knew exactly which ones had the problem. Pretty interesting.
- Neil44 4y ago
  I've toured a couple of car plants because I find them really interesting - Porsche, Mini - the level of refinement, sophistication and tracability of their ERP is always staggering.
  - koofdoof 4y ago
    Do you need special connections to tour one? I would love to go, but I assume it would be difficult as a member of the public.
    - ketkev 4y ago
      I believe Volkswagen's Wolfsburg factory is open for tours
    - Kon-Peki 4y ago
      You can tour the Ford River Rouge truck factory, which is where they make the F-150 and F-150 Lightning (PS you can spend an entire weekend at the Henry Ford complex - the whole thing is outstanding): https://www.thehenryford.org/visit/ford-rouge-factory-tour/highlights/assembly-plant-tour/ https://www.thehenryford.org/visit/ford-rouge-factory-tour/h... I went on a tour of the VW Dresden factory back when it produced the Phaeton and Bentley Continental. It looks like they currently produce the ID.3 there and are still doing tours: https://www.glaesernemanufaktur.de/en/your-visit/our-tours.html https://www.glaesernemanufaktur.de/en/your-visit/our-tours.h...
    - sho_hn 4y ago
      At Mercedes-Benz we offer factory tours you can just sign up for. Agree with OP, well worth it! Developing and iteratively refining a production line from pilot factory to network scale is not entirely unlike software development. Here's a few clips of a modern one, including a longer doc: https://youtu.be/UdDvDKC8FVM https://youtu.be/UdDvDKC8FVM & https://youtu.be/TWLyRQbvr6o https://youtu.be/TWLyRQbvr6o
londons_explore 4y ago
If I were to guess, this issue will be because metal tabs inside the cells were cut to shape with a stamping machine. The stamping machine die was probably worn, leaving burrs on the edges of the tabs. Those burrs are sharp and perforate plastic membranes, causing a short. Lesson:. All stamped parts should be deburred.
- dboreham 4y ago
  Don't the drawings say "Debur all edges"?
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  >Lesson:. All stamped parts should be deburred. This take is like the manufacturing equivalent of when people say we need a law to prevent something that's already illegal. The run of parts was mostly in spec. All they have to do is change their tools a little more aggressively or tighten up the parameters on their existing QC process. Adding an extra step to a low margin high volume part where cost is dominated by number of operations in the manufacturing process is needless and wasteful when you can just do what you're already doing but at an ever so slightly higher level of quality.
  - tomatotomato37 4y ago
    Also for all we know they could already be doing this and the defect actually occured because of it, E.G. misaligned deburring head bending the metal into an edge
Scalene2 4y ago
Really annoying that they don't put the number of vehicles recalled (18) in the headline.
DrThunder 4y ago
Current iteration of EV trucks is just dumb. Completely useless for any real truck things due to the abysmal range and exorbitant cost.
- cptskippy 4y ago
  It's ok for you to say quietly in your head "I'm not the intended audience for this product" and move on. You don't need to embarrass yourself like this.
  - DrThunder 4y ago
    Who's the actual audience? Elites that want to pretend they're saving the planet with an oversized vehicle they get in after they just got done flying their massive personal jet around? Why are you embarrassed by reality?
  - stcroixx 4y ago
    Much more embarrassing to be the intended audience for such a ruse.
    - maximus-decimus 4y ago
      Ruse. Most people don't buy truck because they need a truck, they just like trucks. People who only drive their trucks in the city are not being tricked, they just buy what they want.
      - cptskippy 4y ago
        I would argue that it's not what they like but rather what advertisers have told them they need to prove they're tough or masculine or important. I keep getting adverts on Youtube from Jeep/Chrysler and they're some of the most fragile ego appealing cringe ads I've ever seen.
        DrThunder 4y ago
rasz 4y ago
>Due to SK Cells I predicted Ford would have problems with SK batteries two years ago the moment Bolts started going up in flames https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28547711 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28547711 : >you will be happy to know Ford is using SK batteries after switching away from LG. SK just recently settled for $2billions a case that revealed they stole LG battery technology. Bolt uses LG batteries. >LG had a chain of costly recalls and replacements for all of their clients >"LG Energy Solutions, the company that makes the battery for the Bolt and Kona EV, has not had a good year. First, they agreed to replace the 82,000 batteries sold to Hyundai for the Kona EV, Ioniq, and Elec City buses. Although the initial rumors were from a faulty battery separator, Hyundai later said that the problem was badly folded tabs. GM emphatically pointed out that they use a different separator, and a different factory. Thus neither of those problems should apply to the Bolt fires. >Porsche recently initiated a recall on a loss of power in its Taycan LG batteries, and Ford also moved from LG in its Mustang Mach-E to SK in its Ford F-150 Lightning."

63 points by imtig3rman 4y ago

Aren’t really large batteries still a fire hazard. I remember when they even became issues for Boeing Dreamliner planes: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Boeing_787_Dreamliner_grounding https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Boeing_787_Dreamliner_g...

bluGill 4y ago
Sure, just like large fuel tanks are a fire hazard. We have to take the correct precautions. In the case of batteries that is make things with the right margin of safety, and be careful how we charge. (probably more, I'm not a battery expert)
- magicalhippo 4y ago
  Battery chemistry is another one. There are chemistries[1] that are much less, if at all, prone to go up in flames on their own. Of course there's usually always a tradeoff with other properties, like weight or cost. [1]: For example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery#Safety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery...
- corbulo 4y ago
  Batteries are a much greater hazard than gas fires. Not even close. To start, you can actually put gas fires out with a reasonable amount of water before its fuel source is burnt up.
londons_explore 4y ago
Typically battery fires with no obvious cause are due to a fault in the manufacturing process. Big batteries are more vulnerable simply because there are more cells to potentially have a defect.

codazoda 4y ago

Ford recalled 18 vehicles. It knew exactly which ones had the problem. Pretty interesting.

Neil44 4y ago
I've toured a couple of car plants because I find them really interesting - Porsche, Mini - the level of refinement, sophistication and tracability of their ERP is always staggering.
- koofdoof 4y ago
  Do you need special connections to tour one? I would love to go, but I assume it would be difficult as a member of the public.
  - ketkev 4y ago
    I believe Volkswagen's Wolfsburg factory is open for tours
  - Kon-Peki 4y ago
    You can tour the Ford River Rouge truck factory, which is where they make the F-150 and F-150 Lightning (PS you can spend an entire weekend at the Henry Ford complex - the whole thing is outstanding): https://www.thehenryford.org/visit/ford-rouge-factory-tour/highlights/assembly-plant-tour/ https://www.thehenryford.org/visit/ford-rouge-factory-tour/h... I went on a tour of the VW Dresden factory back when it produced the Phaeton and Bentley Continental. It looks like they currently produce the ID.3 there and are still doing tours: https://www.glaesernemanufaktur.de/en/your-visit/our-tours.html https://www.glaesernemanufaktur.de/en/your-visit/our-tours.h...
  - sho_hn 4y ago
    At Mercedes-Benz we offer factory tours you can just sign up for. Agree with OP, well worth it! Developing and iteratively refining a production line from pilot factory to network scale is not entirely unlike software development. Here's a few clips of a modern one, including a longer doc: https://youtu.be/UdDvDKC8FVM https://youtu.be/UdDvDKC8FVM & https://youtu.be/TWLyRQbvr6o https://youtu.be/TWLyRQbvr6o

londons_explore 4y ago

If I were to guess, this issue will be because metal tabs inside the cells were cut to shape with a stamping machine. The stamping machine die was probably worn, leaving burrs on the edges of the tabs. Those burrs are sharp and perforate plastic membranes, causing a short. Lesson:. All stamped parts should be deburred.

dboreham 4y ago
Don't the drawings say "Debur all edges"?
dsfyu404ed 4y ago
>Lesson:. All stamped parts should be deburred. This take is like the manufacturing equivalent of when people say we need a law to prevent something that's already illegal. The run of parts was mostly in spec. All they have to do is change their tools a little more aggressively or tighten up the parameters on their existing QC process. Adding an extra step to a low margin high volume part where cost is dominated by number of operations in the manufacturing process is needless and wasteful when you can just do what you're already doing but at an ever so slightly higher level of quality.
- tomatotomato37 4y ago
  Also for all we know they could already be doing this and the defect actually occured because of it, E.G. misaligned deburring head bending the metal into an edge

Scalene2 4y ago

Really annoying that they don't put the number of vehicles recalled (18) in the headline.

DrThunder 4y ago

Current iteration of EV trucks is just dumb. Completely useless for any real truck things due to the abysmal range and exorbitant cost.

cptskippy 4y ago
It's ok for you to say quietly in your head "I'm not the intended audience for this product" and move on. You don't need to embarrass yourself like this.
- DrThunder 4y ago
  Who's the actual audience? Elites that want to pretend they're saving the planet with an oversized vehicle they get in after they just got done flying their massive personal jet around? Why are you embarrassed by reality?
- stcroixx 4y ago
  Much more embarrassing to be the intended audience for such a ruse.
  - maximus-decimus 4y ago
    Ruse. Most people don't buy truck because they need a truck, they just like trucks. People who only drive their trucks in the city are not being tricked, they just buy what they want.
    - cptskippy 4y ago
      I would argue that it's not what they like but rather what advertisers have told them they need to prove they're tough or masculine or important. I keep getting adverts on Youtube from Jeep/Chrysler and they're some of the most fragile ego appealing cringe ads I've ever seen.
      - DrThunder 4y ago

rasz 4y ago

>Due to SK Cells I predicted Ford would have problems with SK batteries two years ago the moment Bolts started going up in flames https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28547711 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28547711 : >you will be happy to know Ford is using SK batteries after switching away from LG. SK just recently settled for $2billions a case that revealed they stole LG battery technology. Bolt uses LG batteries. >LG had a chain of costly recalls and replacements for all of their clients >"LG Energy Solutions, the company that makes the battery for the Bolt and Kona EV, has not had a good year. First, they agreed to replace the 82,000 batteries sold to Hyundai for the Kona EV, Ioniq, and Elec City buses. Although the initial rumors were from a faulty battery separator, Hyundai later said that the problem was badly folded tabs. GM emphatically pointed out that they use a different separator, and a different factory. Thus neither of those problems should apply to the Bolt fires. >Porsche recently initiated a recall on a loss of power in its Taycan LG batteries, and Ford also moved from LG in its Mustang Mach-E to SK in its Ford F-150 Lightning."