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"Tim's point is that "Google is /not/ evil." Tim has spectacularly missed the forest for the trees. Google isn't just evil today because they updated their pri

by Steko 15y ago

"Tim's point is that "Google is /not/ evil." Tim has spectacularly missed the forest for the trees. Google isn't just evil today because they updated their privacy policy. If turning a blind or half blind eye to suppliers in Asia is evil then they, like every other tech company, are evil and have been for a long time. Where do the 700,000 Android phones that get activated every day get made? Is Google blameless because they dont make it themselves? Would Apple be blameless if they just designed the phones and contracted someone else to build it? Well they did so I guess not... Look, it's clear that Apple, as the most visible brand, is going to get the lion's share of attention here the same way Nike was the target of sweatshop complaints in the 80's. That said, as opposed to just shaming the Big Bad Apple, I'd really love to see a detailed comparison between the standards and practices of Apple and other first world companies contracting with suppliers in Asia (and elsewhere).

cooldeal 15y ago
>Where do the 700,000 Android phones that get activated every day get made? Is Google blameless because they dont make it themselves? But..but..but...as we are tirelessly reminded by some folks here, Apple takes most of the profits of the mobile handset industry, so they're in the best position to lessen their huge margin by a few percentage points so as to not endanger the lives of the people that make the phones. If they make the most money from making people work in inhumane conditions, they deserve the most blame, esp. since they have the most leverage to pay more.
- lloeki 15y ago
  According to Tim Cook's company email on the matter, they do. The fact is, you can't just pour money over the place and see what comes out of it. Especially in a country like China, and with multiple factories sizing in the range of 100'000s of workers. Hundred fscking thousands. This is the same order of magnitude as the whole of General Motors, for a single factory. The whole thing is architected to be able to reconfigure itself to produce whatever the demand needs almost overnight. This is incredible. There is no single country out there which has such a powerful tool. It's of thermonuclear scale, when the US tries to fight with a bunch of Winchesters (and even smaller countries like France are battling with swords and bows in a stone castle). Even if you're Apple you can't come in cash in hand and say 'Okay folks, this is not how we want things to work here' and re-architect the whole thing in a day. As you said they're in the best position to use leverage and I think they're doing it but moving such a huge block needs a freaking huge lever, and time.
- Steko 15y ago
  Now you're just arguing degrees of evilness. My point here is not to defend Apple, they may well be evil to the core, but to point out the error in O'Reilly's defense of Google. Google isn't just a privacy policy and a SAAS company. As a continued tangent though, let's talk about Apple's culpability and how much blame they deserve. "they deserve the most blame, esp. since they have the most leverage" My problem with this is you're assuming Apple hasn't used any leverage positively here which may be true but may not, we've seen indications that they are doing more but also that might just be PR window dressing. Let's see a real "apples to Apple" comparison side by side with other major vendors. And by all means let's condemn then if they are worse then others. OTOH if it turns out that Apple is, relatively speaking, the gold standard and is doing the most to improve conditions then it might turn out they are deserving of praise. Either way Tim O'Reilly is wrong.
AllenKids 15y ago
Not only those giant piles of Android phones, also Google's cheap farms of Linux servers, so they are customly made rigs, but where do the components come from? Are they assembled by the same line workers making every other lowly PCs?
- azar1 15y ago
  Where are they supposed to buy ethically manufactured hardware? Unfortunately, aside from only buying used electronics, you have close to no choices.
  - zeroboy 15y ago
    RIM manufactures their smartphones on-site in Waterloo Ontario Canada (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong). I have a friend and a cousin who work at RIM and working conditions and wages are excellent. I know for a fact I will never purchase an Apple device again. I don't want blood on my hands. RIM Blackberries may be the only ethical choice.
    - brandon 15y ago
      Good on you for citing ethics, but your point misses the mark. Modern Blackberries include components from Samsung, Texus Instruments, Marvell, Cyprus, Renesas, Infineon, and dozen of other companies that may or may not be "ethically" manufacturing components. As far as I'm concerned, there are no "responsibly built" electronics, but maybe I'm picking nits. (Or maybe I'm not picking enough nits! Are we responsibly sourcing our Lithium, Indium, and Tantalum? Seriously, search for "blood tantalum")
      - deleted 15y ago
        [deleted]
      - zeroboy 15y ago
        Just received confirmation that RIM's main manufacturing plant is in Waterloo. They also have a plant in Dallas, Hungary and Mexico. A person in RIM management has told me the costs on RIM devices are typically higher because they stay away from unfair labor practices. BTW: Ethics is my point. The fair treatment of ALL human beings should and must trump all other matters.
zak_mc_kracken 15y ago
> Where do the 700,000 Android phones that get activated every day get made? Is Google blameless because they dont make it themselves? Maybe, maybe not, but with all the hostility toward Google, I think a damning article would have come out by now.

by Steko 15y ago

cooldeal 15y ago

>Where do the 700,000 Android phones that get activated every day get made? Is Google blameless because they dont make it themselves? But..but..but...as we are tirelessly reminded by some folks here, Apple takes most of the profits of the mobile handset industry, so they're in the best position to lessen their huge margin by a few percentage points so as to not endanger the lives of the people that make the phones. If they make the most money from making people work in inhumane conditions, they deserve the most blame, esp. since they have the most leverage to pay more.

lloeki 15y ago
According to Tim Cook's company email on the matter, they do. The fact is, you can't just pour money over the place and see what comes out of it. Especially in a country like China, and with multiple factories sizing in the range of 100'000s of workers. Hundred fscking thousands. This is the same order of magnitude as the whole of General Motors, for a single factory. The whole thing is architected to be able to reconfigure itself to produce whatever the demand needs almost overnight. This is incredible. There is no single country out there which has such a powerful tool. It's of thermonuclear scale, when the US tries to fight with a bunch of Winchesters (and even smaller countries like France are battling with swords and bows in a stone castle). Even if you're Apple you can't come in cash in hand and say 'Okay folks, this is not how we want things to work here' and re-architect the whole thing in a day. As you said they're in the best position to use leverage and I think they're doing it but moving such a huge block needs a freaking huge lever, and time.
Steko 15y ago
Now you're just arguing degrees of evilness. My point here is not to defend Apple, they may well be evil to the core, but to point out the error in O'Reilly's defense of Google. Google isn't just a privacy policy and a SAAS company. As a continued tangent though, let's talk about Apple's culpability and how much blame they deserve. "they deserve the most blame, esp. since they have the most leverage" My problem with this is you're assuming Apple hasn't used any leverage positively here which may be true but may not, we've seen indications that they are doing more but also that might just be PR window dressing. Let's see a real "apples to Apple" comparison side by side with other major vendors. And by all means let's condemn then if they are worse then others. OTOH if it turns out that Apple is, relatively speaking, the gold standard and is doing the most to improve conditions then it might turn out they are deserving of praise. Either way Tim O'Reilly is wrong.

AllenKids 15y ago

Not only those giant piles of Android phones, also Google's cheap farms of Linux servers, so they are customly made rigs, but where do the components come from? Are they assembled by the same line workers making every other lowly PCs?

azar1 15y ago
Where are they supposed to buy ethically manufactured hardware? Unfortunately, aside from only buying used electronics, you have close to no choices.
- zeroboy 15y ago
  RIM manufactures their smartphones on-site in Waterloo Ontario Canada (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong). I have a friend and a cousin who work at RIM and working conditions and wages are excellent. I know for a fact I will never purchase an Apple device again. I don't want blood on my hands. RIM Blackberries may be the only ethical choice.
  - brandon 15y ago
    Good on you for citing ethics, but your point misses the mark. Modern Blackberries include components from Samsung, Texus Instruments, Marvell, Cyprus, Renesas, Infineon, and dozen of other companies that may or may not be "ethically" manufacturing components. As far as I'm concerned, there are no "responsibly built" electronics, but maybe I'm picking nits. (Or maybe I'm not picking enough nits! Are we responsibly sourcing our Lithium, Indium, and Tantalum? Seriously, search for "blood tantalum")
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
    - zeroboy 15y ago
      Just received confirmation that RIM's main manufacturing plant is in Waterloo. They also have a plant in Dallas, Hungary and Mexico. A person in RIM management has told me the costs on RIM devices are typically higher because they stay away from unfair labor practices. BTW: Ethics is my point. The fair treatment of ALL human beings should and must trump all other matters.

zak_mc_kracken 15y ago

> Where do the 700,000 Android phones that get activated every day get made? Is Google blameless because they dont make it themselves? Maybe, maybe not, but with all the hostility toward Google, I think a damning article would have come out by now.