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Unelected bureaucrats who think they are above the citizens, too much reach, too much influence, insistence in regulating every industry and every activity. Thi

Unelected bureaucrats who think they are above the citizens, too much reach, too much influence, insistence in regulating every industry and every activity. This can only end in a can a cashless mass-surveillance social credit system dystopia even worse than China. Give it a few years.

ktosobcy 4y ago
Give me a break. Parlimant is elected directly, commission is made of PMs of the member states government, that were also elected. If feels like hearing Brits touting those 'unelected bureaucrats' while at the same time having unelected PM and house of Lords... no voting system is perfect nor the EU is perfect but this is one of the dumbest arguments there. As for policies - they are quite often very pro-citizen and having lived outside the EU for a couple of years I appreciate them even more...
- qwytw 4y ago
  I definitely agree that in balance the EU has been greatly beneficial but let's not get overoptimistic... > Parliament is elected directly The institution is a joke with no real power compared to national parliaments. They don't get to appoint the government, can't propose legislation etc. basically they just rubber-stamp anything which is brought by the commission by them. Barely any anywhere takes the EU elections seriously. > made of PMs of the member states government PMs? National governments can appoint anyone they want and often use it as a way to reward their buddies with a very cushy job (with close to zero political accountability) for a few years. Or to get someone influential/popular/etc. but whom the government finds dangerous from the country for a few years. The process for picking ("electing") a commission president is a bit different but perfectly illustrates my point. They just appointed the most incompetent high ranking politician they could find in Germany... > unelected PM Just like the head of government in every single non-presidential country in Europe (Germany, Netherlands, Italy, Sweden, Spain, Austria etc... (the only excpetion is France). Anyway be any objective metric this is more democratic than the EU government. > and house of Lords. I agree. But it's an anachronistic and a powerless institution. Basically a retirement program for retired influential politicians...
  - ktosobcy 4y ago
    > The institution is a joke with no real power compared to national parliaments. They don't get to appoint the government, can't propose legislation etc. basically they just rubber-stamp anything which is brought by the commission by them. Barely any anywhere takes the EU elections seriously. Agreed. By the push towards more powerful Parliament is greeted with huge opposition from "nation states" because you know... "sovereignty"... :| > PMs? National governments can appoint anyone they want and often use it as a way to reward their buddies with a very cushy job (with close to zero political accountability) for a few years. Or to get someone influential/popular/etc. but whom the government finds dangerous from the country for a few years. Yes, that's correct but how else do you want to handle it? Ideally there should be two chamber body, lower one (Parliament) with proportional representation and upper one (Commission) with representation of member states (akin to the US) but that's just yet another election (you have EU one, national one and then regional ones)... > The process for picking ("electing") a commission president is a bit different but perfectly illustrates my point. They just appointed the most incompetent high ranking politician they could find in Germany... Yeah... and also corrupted from what I heard. But - case in point, even incompetent and corrupted ones can be elected via direct democracy (Poland, Hungary, Tukey…)? > Just like the head of government in every single non-presidential country in Europe (Germany, Netherlands, Italy, Sweden, Spain, Austria etc... (the only excpetion is France). Anyway be any objective metric this is more democratic than the EU government. Not sure if those are more democratic or not. Problem may be that those head of states usually wield less power than Commission. AFAIR this year was a push to give Parliament more power but was met with butthurt from nation states... > I agree. But it's an anachronistic and a powerless institution. Basically a retirement program for retired influential politicians... AFAIR HoL can be quite influential and can block certain laws. And it's not abolished because it's unelecetd, so they can have more scrutiny over certain laws without fearing the election... Either way - it's "wobbly wobbly" and complicated :D
- ExoticPearTree 4y ago
  The EU commission is made up of unelected members who think about themselves that they're gods and they hold the absolute truth. The policies lately are pro surveillance and pro hardcore socialism.
- th13row 4y ago
  I'm not from the UK, I'm from South America. It doesn't matter though, both the UK and the EU will crumble apart so fast that I'm already expecting the hordes of expats trying to find refuge here. Which is funny, because SA lives in a perpetual economic and social crisis, but even still, even a poor and somewhat corrupted country like Bolivia or Paraguay is a better prospect than living in a dystopian communist hellhole.
  - ktosobcy 4y ago
    > I'm not from the UK, Never said you were. Only that you sound like a Brit... > I'm from South America. Greetings from Chile, the lovely state of estallido social de 2019 :P > It doesn't matter though, both the UK and the EU will crumble apart so fast that Lol, we've been hearing this as well for the past 20-30 years, mostly from the UK press and Leave campaign :D > I'm already expecting the hordes of expats trying to find refuge here. > > Which is funny, because SA lives in a perpetual economic and social crisis, but even still, even a poor and somewhat corrupted country like Bolivia or Paraguay is a better prospect than living in a dystopian communist hellhole. Arm, hasn't "the red wave" just swept the LatAm? Chile? Venezuela? Colombia? Brasil? Besides you seem to have USA-based definition of "communism", which is even funnier :D
    - th13row 4y ago
      Haha you're right, but as I always say, Latam, despite becoming red all over, is too corrupt/poor/unstable/inept to pull anything off. There are talks of a single currency ("Sur") which will never happen because Brasil doesn't want to hold Argentina's bags, because there's always been a grudge among many of these countries. Furthermore, there's a philosophy here: many rules, barely any enforcement (because of reasons stated above). Ultimately I believe that the EU does have the capacity to do what they say. That's whats scary. Mercosur, not so much.
      - ktosobcy 4y ago
        So in a nutshell, you seem like anarchist and because of the inaptitude of LatAm countries you are quite content with status quo here? :D
pjc50 4y ago
The "unelected bureaucrats" attack line was extremely effective in the UK despite having an unelected legislature and an unelected monarch.

ktosobcy 4y ago

Give me a break. Parlimant is elected directly, commission is made of PMs of the member states government, that were also elected. If feels like hearing Brits touting those 'unelected bureaucrats' while at the same time having unelected PM and house of Lords... no voting system is perfect nor the EU is perfect but this is one of the dumbest arguments there. As for policies - they are quite often very pro-citizen and having lived outside the EU for a couple of years I appreciate them even more...

qwytw 4y ago
I definitely agree that in balance the EU has been greatly beneficial but let's not get overoptimistic... > Parliament is elected directly The institution is a joke with no real power compared to national parliaments. They don't get to appoint the government, can't propose legislation etc. basically they just rubber-stamp anything which is brought by the commission by them. Barely any anywhere takes the EU elections seriously. > made of PMs of the member states government PMs? National governments can appoint anyone they want and often use it as a way to reward their buddies with a very cushy job (with close to zero political accountability) for a few years. Or to get someone influential/popular/etc. but whom the government finds dangerous from the country for a few years. The process for picking ("electing") a commission president is a bit different but perfectly illustrates my point. They just appointed the most incompetent high ranking politician they could find in Germany... > unelected PM Just like the head of government in every single non-presidential country in Europe (Germany, Netherlands, Italy, Sweden, Spain, Austria etc... (the only excpetion is France). Anyway be any objective metric this is more democratic than the EU government. > and house of Lords. I agree. But it's an anachronistic and a powerless institution. Basically a retirement program for retired influential politicians...
- ktosobcy 4y ago
  > The institution is a joke with no real power compared to national parliaments. They don't get to appoint the government, can't propose legislation etc. basically they just rubber-stamp anything which is brought by the commission by them. Barely any anywhere takes the EU elections seriously. Agreed. By the push towards more powerful Parliament is greeted with huge opposition from "nation states" because you know... "sovereignty"... :| > PMs? National governments can appoint anyone they want and often use it as a way to reward their buddies with a very cushy job (with close to zero political accountability) for a few years. Or to get someone influential/popular/etc. but whom the government finds dangerous from the country for a few years. Yes, that's correct but how else do you want to handle it? Ideally there should be two chamber body, lower one (Parliament) with proportional representation and upper one (Commission) with representation of member states (akin to the US) but that's just yet another election (you have EU one, national one and then regional ones)... > The process for picking ("electing") a commission president is a bit different but perfectly illustrates my point. They just appointed the most incompetent high ranking politician they could find in Germany... Yeah... and also corrupted from what I heard. But - case in point, even incompetent and corrupted ones can be elected via direct democracy (Poland, Hungary, Tukey…)? > Just like the head of government in every single non-presidential country in Europe (Germany, Netherlands, Italy, Sweden, Spain, Austria etc... (the only excpetion is France). Anyway be any objective metric this is more democratic than the EU government. Not sure if those are more democratic or not. Problem may be that those head of states usually wield less power than Commission. AFAIR this year was a push to give Parliament more power but was met with butthurt from nation states... > I agree. But it's an anachronistic and a powerless institution. Basically a retirement program for retired influential politicians... AFAIR HoL can be quite influential and can block certain laws. And it's not abolished because it's unelecetd, so they can have more scrutiny over certain laws without fearing the election... Either way - it's "wobbly wobbly" and complicated :D
ExoticPearTree 4y ago
The EU commission is made up of unelected members who think about themselves that they're gods and they hold the absolute truth. The policies lately are pro surveillance and pro hardcore socialism.
th13row 4y ago
I'm not from the UK, I'm from South America. It doesn't matter though, both the UK and the EU will crumble apart so fast that I'm already expecting the hordes of expats trying to find refuge here. Which is funny, because SA lives in a perpetual economic and social crisis, but even still, even a poor and somewhat corrupted country like Bolivia or Paraguay is a better prospect than living in a dystopian communist hellhole.
- ktosobcy 4y ago
  > I'm not from the UK, Never said you were. Only that you sound like a Brit... > I'm from South America. Greetings from Chile, the lovely state of estallido social de 2019 :P > It doesn't matter though, both the UK and the EU will crumble apart so fast that Lol, we've been hearing this as well for the past 20-30 years, mostly from the UK press and Leave campaign :D > I'm already expecting the hordes of expats trying to find refuge here. > > Which is funny, because SA lives in a perpetual economic and social crisis, but even still, even a poor and somewhat corrupted country like Bolivia or Paraguay is a better prospect than living in a dystopian communist hellhole. Arm, hasn't "the red wave" just swept the LatAm? Chile? Venezuela? Colombia? Brasil? Besides you seem to have USA-based definition of "communism", which is even funnier :D
  - th13row 4y ago
    Haha you're right, but as I always say, Latam, despite becoming red all over, is too corrupt/poor/unstable/inept to pull anything off. There are talks of a single currency ("Sur") which will never happen because Brasil doesn't want to hold Argentina's bags, because there's always been a grudge among many of these countries. Furthermore, there's a philosophy here: many rules, barely any enforcement (because of reasons stated above). Ultimately I believe that the EU does have the capacity to do what they say. That's whats scary. Mercosur, not so much.
    - ktosobcy 4y ago
      So in a nutshell, you seem like anarchist and because of the inaptitude of LatAm countries you are quite content with status quo here? :D

pjc50 4y ago

The "unelected bureaucrats" attack line was extremely effective in the UK despite having an unelected legislature and an unelected monarch.