9 ms·

Archived link: https://archive.is/xzPtR https://archive.is/xzPtR The article says that there are similarities between the two industries, I see these similarit

by bkq 4y ago

Archived link: https://archive.is/xzPtR https://archive.is/xzPtR The article says that there are similarities between the two industries, I see these similarities too between how the workforces are treated. Whereby Hollywood VFX workers are overworked and underpaid, and some even end up going under, and the Academy is always there to stomp out their protest during the few minutes they get at the Oscars [1]. Much like with game development, where waves of contractors are hired, then subsequently fired [2], or being just subjected to endless crunch [3]. I think it's fair to say that game dev companies are the sweatshops of the tech industry, and I feel for anyone who wants to break into what otherwise could be a creative industry. [1] - https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/envelope/la-xpm-2013-feb-25-la-et-ct-visual-effects-protest-20130225-story.html https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/envelope/la-xpm-2013-f... [2] - https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2021/12/03/raven-software-layoffs/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2021/12/03/raven-... [3] - https://www.polygon.com/2019/4/23/18507750/fortnite-work-crunch-epic-games https://www.polygon.com/2019/4/23/18507750/fortnite-work-cru...

3pt14159 4y ago
Well that may be true, but they get to work on stuff that is legitimately cool. I know a guy that worked on StarTrek for years as a VR architect and general 3D modelling type of work. He worked longer hours than your average Torontonian, but nothing absolutely crazy. I've worked longer weeks. He loved his job. I'm not saying it is this way for everyone, but part of life is deciding if you want to work hard, have impact on things that matter, work on cool stuff, earn a lot of money, etc. There are places where it truly gets exploitative, but in my humble opinion that's usually places where the people involved have almost no options other than to move to another town or country. I'm not against industries or companies where the up front expectation is hard work. Some people want that, at least some of the time.
- bkq 4y ago
  >I'm not saying it is this way for everyone, but part of life is deciding if you want to work hard, have impact on things that matter, work on cool stuff, earn a lot of money, etc. VFX people in Hollywoord are some of the most underpaid workers in the industry. Sure, it's cool that you can be a part of a team that helps make a movie. No doubt it must be pretty cool to see your work on the big screen, or even the small screen, and know that you played a part in bringing it there. But I think something the workers would also value is having some autonomy over their work, and being paid for it. I'm not easily convinced by the argument of, "you get to work on cool stuff", working on cool stuff doesn't make up for risking povery, debt, or unemployment when you're underpaid. Furthermore, there's a difference between hard work, and exhausting working. And being put under crunch is exhausting work, not hard work.
  - jollofricepeas 4y ago
    Exactly. Screw cool. I’m an adult. Working on “cool stuff” is for people in their 20s or the perpetually naive… The perpetually naive usually come to their senses when they’re old and recognize they don’t have any savings, don’t have a home to live in and can’t retire. I’ll take a fair wage, health insurance, and balanced work hours every time. I can find cool things to do on my own time when not putting in 16 hours a day.
    - 3pt14159 4y ago
      Ok great good for you! You're (presumably) in the West and can choose what you value, and you value a life with balanced work hours and, well, you call it fair, but in global standards it is high. Either way, for people with the skills to choose between working for Google and making $400k a year or working for Hollywood and making $70k a year, then they go and work for Hollywood and complain about the hours and pay, I just don't really know what else to say other than it's a choice. You get to see your work on the big screen, hang out at cooler parties, etc. Google people, generally speaking, do not get the same thing in life. Unions have their place, of course, especially with monopsonies or mining towns, but when it comes to a whole industry I just think some things naturally come out that way due to the motivations and dynamics.
      - jnovek 4y ago
        I didn't realize that Google is paying nearly half a million dollars a year for VFX artists these days.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  >part of life is deciding if you want to work hard, have impact on things that matter, work on cool stuff, earn a lot of money, etc. One man's happiness is another man's hell, and so forth. The question of happiness is a very subjective one, with everyone having a different answer.
- vanderZwan 4y ago
  > Well that may be true, but they get to work on stuff that is legitimately cool. So? How does that justify being exploited and treated badly? I've seen the same arguments made against teachers, nurses and other people who get to do "meaningful" work whenever they want fairer wages, and I do not see the logic. Do they need to be punished for doing a job where the result of their hard work doesn't make them hate themselves? I see the reverse logic: pay jobs that nobody wants to do well to make them attractive. But the need for carrots does not imply the need for sticks.
  - unclad5968 4y ago
    Nobody is being punished. It's simple supply and demand. If you don't want to work on marvel movies there are millions of young men and women that would do it for pennies. Why is Disney going to pay them more if they don't have to?
- ocimbote 4y ago
  It's alright and quite frankly understandable to be motivated to work on a "big project with big cash and big name". The problem is when the producers use it in an exploitative way to have people work insanely longer hours than billed, or to lower the costs of labour so that the workers can have the "pride" of writing "big name" on their resume. Unfortunately, this is common practice.
- onion2k 4y ago
  they get to work on stuff that is legitimately cool Like most things, working on the cutting-edge, successful, top-tier stuff is cool, but most people in the industry aren't doing that. If you look at something like https://steamdb.info/upcoming/ https://steamdb.info/upcoming/ you'll see a small number of "Yeah, it'd be cool to make that" games, and a lot of "Who the hell buys this crap?" games. Most people employed to build games are working on the second type of game.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  > Well that may be true, but they get to work on stuff that is legitimately cool. In other parts of the software industry, you can also work on legitimately cool stuff without having to kill yourself.
WeylandYutani 4y ago
I think that movies and videogames industry need to get the hell out of America. Wages are too high. Making a triple A game takes a staff of 500 these days.
- bkq 4y ago
  This is something they do, Marvel rely on outsourcing and using ununionised labour [1], and it shows in the recent films and TV shows they've made. There's a drop in the quality of the VFX. Wages for VFX artists aren't too high, as I've said, they are some of the most underpaid workers in the industry, and their protest against this is always stomped out. For a VFX worker it must be highly frustrating working in an industry where other workers are unionised, but they aren't. [1] - https://www.cnet.com/culture/entertainment/marvels-vfx-artists-are-suffering-now-theyre-speaking-out/ https://www.cnet.com/culture/entertainment/marvels-vfx-artis...
  - ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
    Some of the Bollywood VFX is amazing. The movies may not be my cup of tea, but they do good CGI.
    - godzillabrennus 4y ago
      RRR on Netflix was my first Bollywood experience and I quite liked it. The cgi was pretty bad though.
      - lenocinor 4y ago
        RRR is not Bollywood technically, it’s Tollywood.
    - flerchin 4y ago
      Can you point me to a clip on YouTube that you would consider to be good Bollywood VFX? I've mostly been exposed to the most comically bad Bollywood VFX.
hutzlibu 4y ago
"and the Academy is always there to stomp out their protest during the few minutes they get at the Oscars" Hm, I have no knowledge or connection to the events, but "stomping out protests" made me expect a bit more dramatic events, than stopping someones speech, after his time was up. "But Westenhofer’s speech was cut off mid-sentence after he used up his allotted time"
- bkq 4y ago
  It's something the Academy has always engaged in, is with cutting of the microphone of the VFX artists. Other people are not treated like this.
  - tough 4y ago
    Fuck the academy
    - StrangeATractor 4y ago
      They lost all sense of credibility when Peter O'Toole was snubbed for Lawrence of Arabia, and then for the rest of his career. It's just an industry meat parade designed to get you to watch their bullshit.
      - JohnFen 4y ago
        Did they ever have credibility? The academy awards are literally nothing more than any other industry group awards: it's just people in the industry telling each other how awesome they are. They are, and always have been, utterly meaningless.
        StrangeATractor 4y ago
        No they didn't but giving Gregory Peck an Oscar over Peter O'Toole should have destroyed any notion of credibility.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
indigochill 4y ago
I'm not sure that game dev as a gig economy would be the worst thing. Make a thing, get paid, move on. Especially since a traditional game (not MMO or "game as a service") has a natural beginning, middle, and end of development. Plus I assume if you're an independent contractor (not working in an outsourced sweatshop) you have more leverage to stand your ground against nonsense like crunch. But I'm fantasizing that because I've never done contract work so I don't know if that's really the case.
- whitemary 4y ago
  Your assumption is 100% wrong and I couldn't imagine what on Earth gives you that idea. In fact, I am not convinced you actually believe that yourself. I don't believe you've thought about this at all.
  - jasondigitized 4y ago
    Are you going to provide your reasoning besides saying “you’re wrong?”
    - illiarian 4y ago
      Literally every single example we have of gig economy results in lower wages and less worker protections.
      - Jensson 4y ago
        Being able to earn money whenever you want so you don't have to build your life around your work would be huge even if it makes you earn a bit less. Developers earn a lot already, many would take that trade. Edit: That would make game development much more palatable, since gig work implies no overtime unless you want it. Just do some game development and earn money rather than doing it for free on a hobby project. And since it is just a gig you can easily try it out and do something else if you don't like it.
        4y ago

by bkq 4y ago

3pt14159 4y ago

Well that may be true, but they get to work on stuff that is legitimately cool. I know a guy that worked on StarTrek for years as a VR architect and general 3D modelling type of work. He worked longer hours than your average Torontonian, but nothing absolutely crazy. I've worked longer weeks. He loved his job. I'm not saying it is this way for everyone, but part of life is deciding if you want to work hard, have impact on things that matter, work on cool stuff, earn a lot of money, etc. There are places where it truly gets exploitative, but in my humble opinion that's usually places where the people involved have almost no options other than to move to another town or country. I'm not against industries or companies where the up front expectation is hard work. Some people want that, at least some of the time.

bkq 4y ago
>I'm not saying it is this way for everyone, but part of life is deciding if you want to work hard, have impact on things that matter, work on cool stuff, earn a lot of money, etc. VFX people in Hollywoord are some of the most underpaid workers in the industry. Sure, it's cool that you can be a part of a team that helps make a movie. No doubt it must be pretty cool to see your work on the big screen, or even the small screen, and know that you played a part in bringing it there. But I think something the workers would also value is having some autonomy over their work, and being paid for it. I'm not easily convinced by the argument of, "you get to work on cool stuff", working on cool stuff doesn't make up for risking povery, debt, or unemployment when you're underpaid. Furthermore, there's a difference between hard work, and exhausting working. And being put under crunch is exhausting work, not hard work.
- jollofricepeas 4y ago
  Exactly. Screw cool. I’m an adult. Working on “cool stuff” is for people in their 20s or the perpetually naive… The perpetually naive usually come to their senses when they’re old and recognize they don’t have any savings, don’t have a home to live in and can’t retire. I’ll take a fair wage, health insurance, and balanced work hours every time. I can find cool things to do on my own time when not putting in 16 hours a day.
  - 3pt14159 4y ago
    Ok great good for you! You're (presumably) in the West and can choose what you value, and you value a life with balanced work hours and, well, you call it fair, but in global standards it is high. Either way, for people with the skills to choose between working for Google and making $400k a year or working for Hollywood and making $70k a year, then they go and work for Hollywood and complain about the hours and pay, I just don't really know what else to say other than it's a choice. You get to see your work on the big screen, hang out at cooler parties, etc. Google people, generally speaking, do not get the same thing in life. Unions have their place, of course, especially with monopsonies or mining towns, but when it comes to a whole industry I just think some things naturally come out that way due to the motivations and dynamics.
    - jnovek 4y ago
      I didn't realize that Google is paying nearly half a million dollars a year for VFX artists these days.
Dalewyn 4y ago
>part of life is deciding if you want to work hard, have impact on things that matter, work on cool stuff, earn a lot of money, etc. One man's happiness is another man's hell, and so forth. The question of happiness is a very subjective one, with everyone having a different answer.
vanderZwan 4y ago
> Well that may be true, but they get to work on stuff that is legitimately cool. So? How does that justify being exploited and treated badly? I've seen the same arguments made against teachers, nurses and other people who get to do "meaningful" work whenever they want fairer wages, and I do not see the logic. Do they need to be punished for doing a job where the result of their hard work doesn't make them hate themselves? I see the reverse logic: pay jobs that nobody wants to do well to make them attractive. But the need for carrots does not imply the need for sticks.
- unclad5968 4y ago
  Nobody is being punished. It's simple supply and demand. If you don't want to work on marvel movies there are millions of young men and women that would do it for pennies. Why is Disney going to pay them more if they don't have to?
ocimbote 4y ago
It's alright and quite frankly understandable to be motivated to work on a "big project with big cash and big name". The problem is when the producers use it in an exploitative way to have people work insanely longer hours than billed, or to lower the costs of labour so that the workers can have the "pride" of writing "big name" on their resume. Unfortunately, this is common practice.
onion2k 4y ago
they get to work on stuff that is legitimately cool Like most things, working on the cutting-edge, successful, top-tier stuff is cool, but most people in the industry aren't doing that. If you look at something like https://steamdb.info/upcoming/ https://steamdb.info/upcoming/ you'll see a small number of "Yeah, it'd be cool to make that" games, and a lot of "Who the hell buys this crap?" games. Most people employed to build games are working on the second type of game.
JohnFen 4y ago
> Well that may be true, but they get to work on stuff that is legitimately cool. In other parts of the software industry, you can also work on legitimately cool stuff without having to kill yourself.

WeylandYutani 4y ago

I think that movies and videogames industry need to get the hell out of America. Wages are too high. Making a triple A game takes a staff of 500 these days.

bkq 4y ago
This is something they do, Marvel rely on outsourcing and using ununionised labour [1], and it shows in the recent films and TV shows they've made. There's a drop in the quality of the VFX. Wages for VFX artists aren't too high, as I've said, they are some of the most underpaid workers in the industry, and their protest against this is always stomped out. For a VFX worker it must be highly frustrating working in an industry where other workers are unionised, but they aren't. [1] - https://www.cnet.com/culture/entertainment/marvels-vfx-artists-are-suffering-now-theyre-speaking-out/ https://www.cnet.com/culture/entertainment/marvels-vfx-artis...
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  Some of the Bollywood VFX is amazing. The movies may not be my cup of tea, but they do good CGI.
  - godzillabrennus 4y ago
    RRR on Netflix was my first Bollywood experience and I quite liked it. The cgi was pretty bad though.
    - lenocinor 4y ago
      RRR is not Bollywood technically, it’s Tollywood.
  - flerchin 4y ago
    Can you point me to a clip on YouTube that you would consider to be good Bollywood VFX? I've mostly been exposed to the most comically bad Bollywood VFX.

hutzlibu 4y ago

"and the Academy is always there to stomp out their protest during the few minutes they get at the Oscars" Hm, I have no knowledge or connection to the events, but "stomping out protests" made me expect a bit more dramatic events, than stopping someones speech, after his time was up. "But Westenhofer’s speech was cut off mid-sentence after he used up his allotted time"

bkq 4y ago
It's something the Academy has always engaged in, is with cutting of the microphone of the VFX artists. Other people are not treated like this.
- tough 4y ago
  Fuck the academy
  - StrangeATractor 4y ago
    They lost all sense of credibility when Peter O'Toole was snubbed for Lawrence of Arabia, and then for the rest of his career. It's just an industry meat parade designed to get you to watch their bullshit.
    - JohnFen 4y ago
      Did they ever have credibility? The academy awards are literally nothing more than any other industry group awards: it's just people in the industry telling each other how awesome they are. They are, and always have been, utterly meaningless.
      - StrangeATractor 4y ago
        No they didn't but giving Gregory Peck an Oscar over Peter O'Toole should have destroyed any notion of credibility.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

indigochill 4y ago

I'm not sure that game dev as a gig economy would be the worst thing. Make a thing, get paid, move on. Especially since a traditional game (not MMO or "game as a service") has a natural beginning, middle, and end of development. Plus I assume if you're an independent contractor (not working in an outsourced sweatshop) you have more leverage to stand your ground against nonsense like crunch. But I'm fantasizing that because I've never done contract work so I don't know if that's really the case.

whitemary 4y ago
Your assumption is 100% wrong and I couldn't imagine what on Earth gives you that idea. In fact, I am not convinced you actually believe that yourself. I don't believe you've thought about this at all.
- jasondigitized 4y ago
  Are you going to provide your reasoning besides saying “you’re wrong?”
  - illiarian 4y ago
    Literally every single example we have of gig economy results in lower wages and less worker protections.
    - Jensson 4y ago
      Being able to earn money whenever you want so you don't have to build your life around your work would be huge even if it makes you earn a bit less. Developers earn a lot already, many would take that trade. Edit: That would make game development much more palatable, since gig work implies no overtime unless you want it. Just do some game development and earn money rather than doing it for free on a hobby project. And since it is just a gig you can easily try it out and do something else if you don't like it.
      - 4y ago