5 ms·

Making prostitution illegal is what drives a huge part of that human trafficking. With no legal oversight, the pimps have free reign, and when their work is il

Making prostitution illegal is what drives a huge part of that human trafficking. With no legal oversight, the pimps have free reign, and when their work is illegal, the prostitutes have no recourse. The dynamics are very similar to drugs, and for both legalization is the best way to reduce harm.

nashashmi 4y ago
There is a big difference between actions being done in the dark versus actions being done in the open and with full endorsement and legal support. The purpose of law is to tame commercial activities for protection of its commerce and prosperity. By legalizing something that is a net social harm, giving it guiderails so that it can lead to more stability and profit, you have incentivized that harm to reproduce maliciously. It is like offering subsidies to fossil fuels. No, it is like putting regulations on fossil fuels and giving them legitimacy. Some industries should stay in the dark unprotected always looking over their shoulder for when they might get caught.
- nulbyte 4y ago
  > No, it is like putting regulations on fossil fuels and giving them legitimacy. We put regulation on fossil fuels as a practical matter of recognizing the reality in which we operate, and the harms that will come to real people if we outlawed it without a viable solution to the rest of the problems that would create. > Some industries should stay in the dark unprotected always looking over their shoulder for when they might get caught. This sounds nice, but the practical implications are that already disadvantaged people are further abused and taken advantage of. No one should want that type of system.
  - nashashmi 4y ago
    Harms come from having a porn industry too. BUT No harm is done by banning that industry. Disadvantaged people should be not in the porn industry for some wealthy person's self fulfillment. We call that abuse. And the wealthy should be penalized.
- eldritch_4ier 4y ago
  Thank you for a sane answer.
pell 4y ago
Even in countries where sex-work is legal you can find similar dynamics. Unfortunately it's not that easy.
- techdragon 4y ago
  To elaborate for people unfamiliar with these situations... In many countries the work itself is legal, but you find such fun twists as: "You have to operate using cash because banks won't work with you because its legal in Your City/State but not at a State/Federal/National level above that", "You're not allowed to register as a business and subject to substantial tax penalties", "Individuals are allowed to do it, but its illegal for a multiple people to organise and work together as a business", "Your allowed to do it, but only inside your own property, as its illegal for rented commercial or residential property to knowingly provide you such a premises" ... Generally speaking its more common that you find its a case of "It's legal for you the human individual to get paid to have sex, but... not legal to X, Y, or Z" which is how for every step forward, people in this line of work continue to face persecution. Its also sadly one of the ways this the progress gets made, by wheeling and dealing in politics, so they get the legalising change done, but had to trade away any measures that protect worker rights, or changes to decriminalise working as a business together, or to operate a dedicated premises... there's usually one or more catches left over by all the compromise needed to get any movement on the core issue... and so people look at it and go "what's the problem, its legal isn't it?"... to which the response is "well yes... but..." ... And most people have already tuned out before they finish the word "but".
cornholio 4y ago
> Making prostitution illegal is what drives a huge part of that human trafficking. There is absolutely no empirical evidence for this - as it happens, a live social experiment is taking place in Europe. The trafficking networks in the East kicked into overdrive to supply the needs of the German and Belgian legal or gray brothels. There is only one policy that works, demand minimization by outlawing payment for sex. This is what Sweden has done and, far from empowering pimps, it has largely solved the issue of trafficking, while the "Legalize it" group of countries saw it explode. The data speaks for itself.
- hungryforcodes 4y ago
  Sweden has all the wrong solutions to society's problems which they export world wide as the "Swedish Model".
  - fallingknife 4y ago
    They got COVID right
- PeterisP 4y ago
  AFAIK the group that allegedly gets protected by the Swedish system - the Swedish sex-workers - are overwhelmingly against that system.
  - vinik 4y ago
    Many of the strongest advocates for this system are former sex workers, who have recognised the abuse they were subjected to during that time and seek to protect others from the same.
    - cornholio 4y ago
      No doubt, the sex workers that are not trafficked and exploited see it as bad for business because they are forced to compete harder for a smaller market.
zirgs 4y ago
In some other countries prostitution is legal, but brothels and pimping are not. Legalisation of pimping isn't necessary.
Nifty3929 4y ago
I think we'll need to define what "human trafficking" means in order to have a productive conversation about it. It doesn't need to be defined the same way for every context, just for the one we're talking about in each case. So in this particular case, what do you mean by "human trafficking?"

nashashmi 4y ago

There is a big difference between actions being done in the dark versus actions being done in the open and with full endorsement and legal support. The purpose of law is to tame commercial activities for protection of its commerce and prosperity. By legalizing something that is a net social harm, giving it guiderails so that it can lead to more stability and profit, you have incentivized that harm to reproduce maliciously. It is like offering subsidies to fossil fuels. No, it is like putting regulations on fossil fuels and giving them legitimacy. Some industries should stay in the dark unprotected always looking over their shoulder for when they might get caught.

nulbyte 4y ago
> No, it is like putting regulations on fossil fuels and giving them legitimacy. We put regulation on fossil fuels as a practical matter of recognizing the reality in which we operate, and the harms that will come to real people if we outlawed it without a viable solution to the rest of the problems that would create. > Some industries should stay in the dark unprotected always looking over their shoulder for when they might get caught. This sounds nice, but the practical implications are that already disadvantaged people are further abused and taken advantage of. No one should want that type of system.
- nashashmi 4y ago
  Harms come from having a porn industry too. BUT No harm is done by banning that industry. Disadvantaged people should be not in the porn industry for some wealthy person's self fulfillment. We call that abuse. And the wealthy should be penalized.
eldritch_4ier 4y ago
Thank you for a sane answer.

pell 4y ago

Even in countries where sex-work is legal you can find similar dynamics. Unfortunately it's not that easy.

techdragon 4y ago
To elaborate for people unfamiliar with these situations... In many countries the work itself is legal, but you find such fun twists as: "You have to operate using cash because banks won't work with you because its legal in Your City/State but not at a State/Federal/National level above that", "You're not allowed to register as a business and subject to substantial tax penalties", "Individuals are allowed to do it, but its illegal for a multiple people to organise and work together as a business", "Your allowed to do it, but only inside your own property, as its illegal for rented commercial or residential property to knowingly provide you such a premises" ... Generally speaking its more common that you find its a case of "It's legal for you the human individual to get paid to have sex, but... not legal to X, Y, or Z" which is how for every step forward, people in this line of work continue to face persecution. Its also sadly one of the ways this the progress gets made, by wheeling and dealing in politics, so they get the legalising change done, but had to trade away any measures that protect worker rights, or changes to decriminalise working as a business together, or to operate a dedicated premises... there's usually one or more catches left over by all the compromise needed to get any movement on the core issue... and so people look at it and go "what's the problem, its legal isn't it?"... to which the response is "well yes... but..." ... And most people have already tuned out before they finish the word "but".

cornholio 4y ago

> Making prostitution illegal is what drives a huge part of that human trafficking. There is absolutely no empirical evidence for this - as it happens, a live social experiment is taking place in Europe. The trafficking networks in the East kicked into overdrive to supply the needs of the German and Belgian legal or gray brothels. There is only one policy that works, demand minimization by outlawing payment for sex. This is what Sweden has done and, far from empowering pimps, it has largely solved the issue of trafficking, while the "Legalize it" group of countries saw it explode. The data speaks for itself.

hungryforcodes 4y ago
Sweden has all the wrong solutions to society's problems which they export world wide as the "Swedish Model".
- fallingknife 4y ago
  They got COVID right
PeterisP 4y ago
AFAIK the group that allegedly gets protected by the Swedish system - the Swedish sex-workers - are overwhelmingly against that system.
- vinik 4y ago
  Many of the strongest advocates for this system are former sex workers, who have recognised the abuse they were subjected to during that time and seek to protect others from the same.
  - cornholio 4y ago
    No doubt, the sex workers that are not trafficked and exploited see it as bad for business because they are forced to compete harder for a smaller market.

zirgs 4y ago

In some other countries prostitution is legal, but brothels and pimping are not. Legalisation of pimping isn't necessary.

Nifty3929 4y ago

I think we'll need to define what "human trafficking" means in order to have a productive conversation about it. It doesn't need to be defined the same way for every context, just for the one we're talking about in each case. So in this particular case, what do you mean by "human trafficking?"