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While the feature of these stories are always "independent sex workers" and students struggling to pay their college, the main users of adult payment services a

While the feature of these stories are always "independent sex workers" and students struggling to pay their college, the main users of adult payment services are very exploitative businesses that are not owned by the performers, operate in a dirty and unregulated market and are directly responsible for a large part of human trafficking in recent years. I know it doesn't invalidate the point made and I support the freedom of adult individuals to do whatever they want with consenting parties, but it's an important piece of information to consider for understanding the whole issue. We cannot simply turn a blind eye at the massive damage the porn and prostitution industries are doing to society.

justusw 4y ago
Looking at the recent Andrew Tate drama, one definitely gets the impression that a huge part of that industry is extremely shady. I worry though that forcing participants to use obscure payment methods will obscure evidence of human trafficking and rights abuse even more.
- di4na 4y ago
  Note that Andrew Tate specific operation was quite small. That does not reduce the harm inflicted. But also it is worth keeping in mind that having an independent stream of income allows SW in the porn industry to better negotiate good working conditions. And re going for obscure stuff generating problems. It is already the case and we have good case studies following SESTA/FOSTA..
- Proven 4y ago
  [dead]
rippercushions 4y ago
Making prostitution illegal is what drives a huge part of that human trafficking. With no legal oversight, the pimps have free reign, and when their work is illegal, the prostitutes have no recourse. The dynamics are very similar to drugs, and for both legalization is the best way to reduce harm.
- nashashmi 4y ago
  There is a big difference between actions being done in the dark versus actions being done in the open and with full endorsement and legal support. The purpose of law is to tame commercial activities for protection of its commerce and prosperity. By legalizing something that is a net social harm, giving it guiderails so that it can lead to more stability and profit, you have incentivized that harm to reproduce maliciously. It is like offering subsidies to fossil fuels. No, it is like putting regulations on fossil fuels and giving them legitimacy. Some industries should stay in the dark unprotected always looking over their shoulder for when they might get caught.
  - nulbyte 4y ago
    > No, it is like putting regulations on fossil fuels and giving them legitimacy. We put regulation on fossil fuels as a practical matter of recognizing the reality in which we operate, and the harms that will come to real people if we outlawed it without a viable solution to the rest of the problems that would create. > Some industries should stay in the dark unprotected always looking over their shoulder for when they might get caught. This sounds nice, but the practical implications are that already disadvantaged people are further abused and taken advantage of. No one should want that type of system.
    - nashashmi 4y ago
      Harms come from having a porn industry too. BUT No harm is done by banning that industry. Disadvantaged people should be not in the porn industry for some wealthy person's self fulfillment. We call that abuse. And the wealthy should be penalized.
  - eldritch_4ier 4y ago
    Thank you for a sane answer.
- pell 4y ago
  Even in countries where sex-work is legal you can find similar dynamics. Unfortunately it's not that easy.
XorNot 4y ago
This isn't the real problem for payment processors. The problem for payment processors is fraud and chargebacks. The porn industry is an absolute magnet for attempts at using fake or stolen credit cards, either for just plain theft, or from caught spouse's filing fraud claims when the bill is found, or any other of dozens of similar sorts of issues. It's a great way to launder money for example: the goods are transient, frequently cross national borders, but are only video streams and pictures, and easily explainable at huge purchase rates. The problem is that for payment processors, the business simply attracts problems through a myriad of historical social factors which are well beyond their control.
wesleywt 4y ago
If sex workers where allowed to control their own destiny then the exploitation would decrease. Here you have their payment system shut down, now a woman has to get her money via cash which requires protection. You also have websites that allowed sex workers to vet customers shut down because of fake child porn concerns by conservatives (ironically a big user base of sex work).
zxspectrum1982 4y ago
the main users of adult payment services are very exploitative businesses that are not owned by the performers, operate in a dirty and unregulated market and are directly responsible for a large part of human trafficking in recent years And you know that how? Because it's the mantra some interested parties repeat? Those very exploitative business have a ton of money and can always find ways to launder money. The only ones hurted by these bans are the actual independent sex workers, who cannot afford to find alternatives because <gasp> they are independent so they don't have the resources. Stop trying to save the world. All your good will will only hurt the small ones.
- cornholio 4y ago
  That's exactly the point, denying them access to a payment system the consumers can easily access, hence, limiting the profit motive and the resulting massive human damage. By your very limited logic, denying drug traffickers access to the banking system hurts poor coca farmers in Bolivia. Well yes, it does, any policy choice involves compromises.
  - zxspectrum1982 4y ago
    Stop repeating the mantra. Prostitution has existed for millennia. It's not going to change. You can help to democratize it (i. e. independent sex workers) or you can help the big bad guys (by denying independent sex workers access to a payment system they can easily access). Using your very limited non-logic, you have decided you want to help the big guys. Congratulations.
GuB-42 4y ago
When you are in a field where no legitimate actor wants to do business with you, of course there will be crime and exploitation. If I refuse to serve black customers because they are more likely to be criminals, I am going to get a well deserved anti-discrimination lawsuit. That's because we understand that discriminating against black people will only make the problem worse. But discriminating against sex workers is fine, and indeed, it makes the problem worse. For other jobs, the government protects its workers. For example, by making sure workshops comply with safety regulations. For sex workers, the law essentially says "you can't open a workshop", which is all but helpful as it just put these "workshops" in the hands of criminals, and leave sex workers with no protection.
superkuh 4y ago
>a large part of human trafficking in recent years. Citation needed. The idea that human trafficking is a thing and that it has been increasing "in recent years" is a delusion. It is not backed up by the criminal processing data. And in fact the special "human trafficking" courts set up in the USA in the 20-teens were shut down a couple years later due to a lack of any cases to process. Human trafficking being a thing to worry about is entirely a news media infotainment story.
- yieldcrv 4y ago
  I wouldn't say entirely, but I would agree that the public policy approach is completely misguided. A general labor rights approach would allow more independents to exist and controlled persons have more reporting options and people to confide in. Node based, like the concept of herd immunity.
ETH_start 4y ago
What does "human trafficking" even mean in this context? Because I've seen it used to describe facilitating the movement of consenting adults seeking to work in the sex industry.

justusw 4y ago

Looking at the recent Andrew Tate drama, one definitely gets the impression that a huge part of that industry is extremely shady. I worry though that forcing participants to use obscure payment methods will obscure evidence of human trafficking and rights abuse even more.

di4na 4y ago
Note that Andrew Tate specific operation was quite small. That does not reduce the harm inflicted. But also it is worth keeping in mind that having an independent stream of income allows SW in the porn industry to better negotiate good working conditions. And re going for obscure stuff generating problems. It is already the case and we have good case studies following SESTA/FOSTA..
Proven 4y ago
[dead]

rippercushions 4y ago

Making prostitution illegal is what drives a huge part of that human trafficking. With no legal oversight, the pimps have free reign, and when their work is illegal, the prostitutes have no recourse. The dynamics are very similar to drugs, and for both legalization is the best way to reduce harm.

nashashmi 4y ago
There is a big difference between actions being done in the dark versus actions being done in the open and with full endorsement and legal support. The purpose of law is to tame commercial activities for protection of its commerce and prosperity. By legalizing something that is a net social harm, giving it guiderails so that it can lead to more stability and profit, you have incentivized that harm to reproduce maliciously. It is like offering subsidies to fossil fuels. No, it is like putting regulations on fossil fuels and giving them legitimacy. Some industries should stay in the dark unprotected always looking over their shoulder for when they might get caught.
- nulbyte 4y ago
  > No, it is like putting regulations on fossil fuels and giving them legitimacy. We put regulation on fossil fuels as a practical matter of recognizing the reality in which we operate, and the harms that will come to real people if we outlawed it without a viable solution to the rest of the problems that would create. > Some industries should stay in the dark unprotected always looking over their shoulder for when they might get caught. This sounds nice, but the practical implications are that already disadvantaged people are further abused and taken advantage of. No one should want that type of system.
  - nashashmi 4y ago
    Harms come from having a porn industry too. BUT No harm is done by banning that industry. Disadvantaged people should be not in the porn industry for some wealthy person's self fulfillment. We call that abuse. And the wealthy should be penalized.
- eldritch_4ier 4y ago
  Thank you for a sane answer.
pell 4y ago
Even in countries where sex-work is legal you can find similar dynamics. Unfortunately it's not that easy.

XorNot 4y ago

This isn't the real problem for payment processors. The problem for payment processors is fraud and chargebacks. The porn industry is an absolute magnet for attempts at using fake or stolen credit cards, either for just plain theft, or from caught spouse's filing fraud claims when the bill is found, or any other of dozens of similar sorts of issues. It's a great way to launder money for example: the goods are transient, frequently cross national borders, but are only video streams and pictures, and easily explainable at huge purchase rates. The problem is that for payment processors, the business simply attracts problems through a myriad of historical social factors which are well beyond their control.

wesleywt 4y ago

If sex workers where allowed to control their own destiny then the exploitation would decrease. Here you have their payment system shut down, now a woman has to get her money via cash which requires protection. You also have websites that allowed sex workers to vet customers shut down because of fake child porn concerns by conservatives (ironically a big user base of sex work).

zxspectrum1982 4y ago

the main users of adult payment services are very exploitative businesses that are not owned by the performers, operate in a dirty and unregulated market and are directly responsible for a large part of human trafficking in recent years And you know that how? Because it's the mantra some interested parties repeat? Those very exploitative business have a ton of money and can always find ways to launder money. The only ones hurted by these bans are the actual independent sex workers, who cannot afford to find alternatives because <gasp> they are independent so they don't have the resources. Stop trying to save the world. All your good will will only hurt the small ones.

cornholio 4y ago
That's exactly the point, denying them access to a payment system the consumers can easily access, hence, limiting the profit motive and the resulting massive human damage. By your very limited logic, denying drug traffickers access to the banking system hurts poor coca farmers in Bolivia. Well yes, it does, any policy choice involves compromises.
- zxspectrum1982 4y ago
  Stop repeating the mantra. Prostitution has existed for millennia. It's not going to change. You can help to democratize it (i. e. independent sex workers) or you can help the big bad guys (by denying independent sex workers access to a payment system they can easily access). Using your very limited non-logic, you have decided you want to help the big guys. Congratulations.

GuB-42 4y ago

When you are in a field where no legitimate actor wants to do business with you, of course there will be crime and exploitation. If I refuse to serve black customers because they are more likely to be criminals, I am going to get a well deserved anti-discrimination lawsuit. That's because we understand that discriminating against black people will only make the problem worse. But discriminating against sex workers is fine, and indeed, it makes the problem worse. For other jobs, the government protects its workers. For example, by making sure workshops comply with safety regulations. For sex workers, the law essentially says "you can't open a workshop", which is all but helpful as it just put these "workshops" in the hands of criminals, and leave sex workers with no protection.

superkuh 4y ago

>a large part of human trafficking in recent years. Citation needed. The idea that human trafficking is a thing and that it has been increasing "in recent years" is a delusion. It is not backed up by the criminal processing data. And in fact the special "human trafficking" courts set up in the USA in the 20-teens were shut down a couple years later due to a lack of any cases to process. Human trafficking being a thing to worry about is entirely a news media infotainment story.

yieldcrv 4y ago
I wouldn't say entirely, but I would agree that the public policy approach is completely misguided. A general labor rights approach would allow more independents to exist and controlled persons have more reporting options and people to confide in. Node based, like the concept of herd immunity.

ETH_start 4y ago

What does "human trafficking" even mean in this context? Because I've seen it used to describe facilitating the movement of consenting adults seeking to work in the sex industry.