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The lack of worker solidarity in tech is really astounding. I've been in this industry for almost 20 years and have been trying to instill some sense of it in

by piva00 4y ago

The lack of worker solidarity in tech is really astounding. I've been in this industry for almost 20 years and have been trying to instill some sense of it in every workplace I worked. Some decades ago it really seemed that tech workers felt like they were just tech moguls that hadn't made it yet, any kind of labour protection was looked at as "stifling innovation". Only lately I've seen people listen to me when I bring up that if you depend on a salary you're on the same side as 99% of other people, no matter you have a run away of 6 months saved, if you lose your job for 6-12 months and will be fucked by it you should have solidarity with others in the same spot or worse. Trying to bring up class struggles used to be mocked in the tech scene, I feel that people are slowly waking up though, the latest layoffs definitely got me surprised about some folks I know finally understanding what that means.

TurboHaskal 4y ago
> The lack of worker solidarity in tech is really astounding. It's because those that are overpaid relative to others in the industry are very aware of the situation.
roenxi 4y ago
I've seen what "solidarity" did to the manufacturing industry. I'd like my job to stay in my city. And anyone in tech has a lot more to gain from efforts to break the remaining guild-like systems in medicine and law making those services more affordable and available than they do from attempts to build a new one in tech.
- piva00 4y ago
  And I've seen what solidarity (without the scary quotes) did to Sweden (and other Nordics), Germany, etc. as societies for the working class. A union is not a guild, it's not about creating barriers of entry like in law or medicine, unsure why you conflate those concepts. Perhaps it's from ignorance, or perhaps from the fears that the ruling class instilled into you.
  - johngladtj 4y ago
    And yet it's exactly what it does.
  - roenxi 4y ago
    If we're going to copy the Nordics, someone is going to have to start by translating their laws into English so we know what it is they are actually doing. I don't like arguing based on what they are hypothetically doing and I don't think many of the people pointing at them as an example know either. They're tiny, homogeneous and Norway has obscene oil wealth. It isn't obvious we can copy them piecemeal, even if it does make sense which I doubt it does. And although it isn't exactly fair, note that Germany is a wasteland for tech. In the centre of a tech desert. The EU can't do tech. Copying their policies we can do, but it'll probably involve a lot of jobs heading to Asia. All Germany's solidarity isn't getting their salaries up to US wages; the money isn't there.
    - lozenge 4y ago
      The US also has oil wealth, but it goes to shareholders instead of to the public purse. Which is funny because none of them created the oil.
    - piva00 4y ago
      I live and work in Sweden, even though worker solidarity here is almost at an all-time low it's still quite ingrained in society, it's one of the engines of making this society more trustworthy, less unequal and all the benefits that stems from that. > All Germany's solidarity isn't getting their salaries up to US wages; the money isn't there. Because USA's wages are the massive oddball here, not the standard. And to be honest, shouldn't be replicated anywhere else, having such a vast part of your population living how the bottom 50% of the USA lives is not really a goal for most developed countries, it doesn't create a healthy society (as you can see yourself by living in the USA). Comparing purely on a wage basis is a reduction of what societies actually are. Great, you earn a lot more in the USA but now has to deal with all the stresses of living in the USA. Is that really what the average person in an advanced economy should be under? If you believe so, the USA is for you, I don't believe in it. > The EU can't do tech. The EU has a large language and cultural barrier that is nonexistent in the USA, it's not only a purely economical output. ASML is in the EU, are you going to say they can't do tech? Tech couldn't exist without ASML... On the point of tiny "homogeneous" Nordics: Each US state is also pretty tiny with a few exceptions, isn't that the model of the USA? Why can't each tiny state also have their provisions for labour protection? Because it's not part of the culture.
- ohgodplsno 4y ago
  I've seen what no solidarity and no unions did to the US job market and work conditions. You are not a temporarily embarassed millionaire about to disrupt the medecine and law sectors. You're just yet another drone that corporate is happy to use, expandable and easy to throw away.
- fuckyc284 4y ago
  you are a fucktard
Mountain_Skies 4y ago
Solidarity and diversity are opposing forces. Now you understand why Tech is so obsessed with diversity. There will never be the solidarity you seek while companies, to the cheers of their employees, atomize their workers as much as possible. But diversity is now a secular religion whose tenets are ever changing to keep everyone divided. Any solidarity that arises in such a religion can quickly be quashed by changing some of the previously unquestionable core beliefs.
- BowBun 4y ago
  What are you on about? Diversity in the makeup of a group isn't the opposite of the ability for a group to unite for a common cause. Being employed in the same industry is already more than enough to practice solidarity, e.g. unions. I cannot fathom how one would bring a diversity argument against a statement like "workers deserve better protections". Your argument sounds like a stepping stone for racism and anti-diversity rhetoric to me, and I vehemently disagree.
- fuckyc284 4y ago
  Fucking whitey. Pound sand
- throwawayAsdFoo 4y ago
  > Solidarity and diversity are opposing forces. This sentence is close to brain cancer. Diversity means accepting others amongst yours despite your differences, it's the essence of solidarity. >But diversity is now a secular religion whose tenets are ever changing to keep everyone divided. What you are referring to is the ever changing propaganda theater of "left" vs right, which pictures a caricature enemy stereotype, the simple minded can easily hate. "Look here a radical transgenderist!" and suddenly the whole concept of diversity is subject to scrutiny. I think, the lesson you need to learn is not getting triggered by pink hair.

by piva00 4y ago

TurboHaskal 4y ago

> The lack of worker solidarity in tech is really astounding. It's because those that are overpaid relative to others in the industry are very aware of the situation.

roenxi 4y ago

I've seen what "solidarity" did to the manufacturing industry. I'd like my job to stay in my city. And anyone in tech has a lot more to gain from efforts to break the remaining guild-like systems in medicine and law making those services more affordable and available than they do from attempts to build a new one in tech.

piva00 4y ago
And I've seen what solidarity (without the scary quotes) did to Sweden (and other Nordics), Germany, etc. as societies for the working class. A union is not a guild, it's not about creating barriers of entry like in law or medicine, unsure why you conflate those concepts. Perhaps it's from ignorance, or perhaps from the fears that the ruling class instilled into you.
- johngladtj 4y ago
  And yet it's exactly what it does.
- roenxi 4y ago
  If we're going to copy the Nordics, someone is going to have to start by translating their laws into English so we know what it is they are actually doing. I don't like arguing based on what they are hypothetically doing and I don't think many of the people pointing at them as an example know either. They're tiny, homogeneous and Norway has obscene oil wealth. It isn't obvious we can copy them piecemeal, even if it does make sense which I doubt it does. And although it isn't exactly fair, note that Germany is a wasteland for tech. In the centre of a tech desert. The EU can't do tech. Copying their policies we can do, but it'll probably involve a lot of jobs heading to Asia. All Germany's solidarity isn't getting their salaries up to US wages; the money isn't there.
  - lozenge 4y ago
    The US also has oil wealth, but it goes to shareholders instead of to the public purse. Which is funny because none of them created the oil.
  - piva00 4y ago
    I live and work in Sweden, even though worker solidarity here is almost at an all-time low it's still quite ingrained in society, it's one of the engines of making this society more trustworthy, less unequal and all the benefits that stems from that. > All Germany's solidarity isn't getting their salaries up to US wages; the money isn't there. Because USA's wages are the massive oddball here, not the standard. And to be honest, shouldn't be replicated anywhere else, having such a vast part of your population living how the bottom 50% of the USA lives is not really a goal for most developed countries, it doesn't create a healthy society (as you can see yourself by living in the USA). Comparing purely on a wage basis is a reduction of what societies actually are. Great, you earn a lot more in the USA but now has to deal with all the stresses of living in the USA. Is that really what the average person in an advanced economy should be under? If you believe so, the USA is for you, I don't believe in it. > The EU can't do tech. The EU has a large language and cultural barrier that is nonexistent in the USA, it's not only a purely economical output. ASML is in the EU, are you going to say they can't do tech? Tech couldn't exist without ASML... On the point of tiny "homogeneous" Nordics: Each US state is also pretty tiny with a few exceptions, isn't that the model of the USA? Why can't each tiny state also have their provisions for labour protection? Because it's not part of the culture.
ohgodplsno 4y ago
I've seen what no solidarity and no unions did to the US job market and work conditions. You are not a temporarily embarassed millionaire about to disrupt the medecine and law sectors. You're just yet another drone that corporate is happy to use, expandable and easy to throw away.
fuckyc284 4y ago
you are a fucktard

Mountain_Skies 4y ago

Solidarity and diversity are opposing forces. Now you understand why Tech is so obsessed with diversity. There will never be the solidarity you seek while companies, to the cheers of their employees, atomize their workers as much as possible. But diversity is now a secular religion whose tenets are ever changing to keep everyone divided. Any solidarity that arises in such a religion can quickly be quashed by changing some of the previously unquestionable core beliefs.

BowBun 4y ago
What are you on about? Diversity in the makeup of a group isn't the opposite of the ability for a group to unite for a common cause. Being employed in the same industry is already more than enough to practice solidarity, e.g. unions. I cannot fathom how one would bring a diversity argument against a statement like "workers deserve better protections". Your argument sounds like a stepping stone for racism and anti-diversity rhetoric to me, and I vehemently disagree.
fuckyc284 4y ago
Fucking whitey. Pound sand
throwawayAsdFoo 4y ago
> Solidarity and diversity are opposing forces. This sentence is close to brain cancer. Diversity means accepting others amongst yours despite your differences, it's the essence of solidarity. >But diversity is now a secular religion whose tenets are ever changing to keep everyone divided. What you are referring to is the ever changing propaganda theater of "left" vs right, which pictures a caricature enemy stereotype, the simple minded can easily hate. "Look here a radical transgenderist!" and suddenly the whole concept of diversity is subject to scrutiny. I think, the lesson you need to learn is not getting triggered by pink hair.