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This is how cities die. If the downtown gets abandoned the heart of the city stops beating. The whole premise of a city is a high density area to get economies

This is how cities die. If the downtown gets abandoned the heart of the city stops beating. The whole premise of a city is a high density area to get economies of scale on many public goods.

nemothekid 4y ago
It's hard to describe downtown/fidi as the heart of the city. It was already pretty dead on weekends compared to the rest of the city in 2019. OTOH, rents have been stubbornly flat or growing in other parts of the city. Places like the mission, hayes valley, marina, north beach and polk are very lively now and I'm back to struggling at getting reservations at some of my favorite places outside of downtown. I think what suffers the most is tourism - as places like Union Square, downtown and fisherman's wharf are relatively empty.
heleninboodler 4y ago
Yep, going to hell in a handbasket. Just terrible. Most certainly going to be a desolate wasteland before long. I'll do you a favor and buy your house.
Kon-Peki 4y ago
> This is how cities die. If the downtown gets abandoned the heart of the city stops beating. My office is in a 90+ year old skyscraper in Chicago. Our building is not renewing leases; they’re trying to empty it out to convert to residential. At our last town hall the CEO said he’s hearing talk about incentives to terminate leases early. In the Chicago Loop, population is up 10% since before the pandemic, and expected to continue to increase faster than new construction can handle, so there is real demand for converting old office buildings. Old buildings typically have ideal floor plates. New office buildings are bad, but there was a story in The NY Times just the other day about a developer who cut a vertical hole in the middle of a newer skyscraper in Manhattan so the giant rectangular floor plate became an O-shape, allowing apartments along the interior of the building to have windows opening to an interior courtyard. SF really needs to get on the ball before the damage to the city is too great.
- ghaff 4y ago
  That was a good piece in the NY Times. I'm skeptical about what probably an expensive lower-story apartment with a view out into basically a lightwell would be like. I've had hotel rooms like that but maybe this is better done.
  - Kon-Peki 4y ago
    I’d be really skeptical too, and I hope the price-per-square-foot is much lower to compensate. I would imagine that some well-angled mirrors near the top of the building can greatly increase the amount of light that goes down that hole.
  - rsync 4y ago
    "I'm skeptical about what probably an expensive lower-story apartment with a view out into basically a lightwell would be like." The key here (I assume) is that it is a 90 year old skyscraper (according to your parent) and those older buildings are, generally, easier to convert and have a smaller floor plate, etc. Of course I have no idea about this particular building but word on the street is, older office buildings have a better chance of being good candidates.
    - rippercushions 4y ago
      I would assume older buildings to have larger floor plates? Many of New York's newer skyscrapers, esp. the "one luxury apartment per floor" kind, are really skinny.
      - bobthepanda 4y ago
        For office buildings, no. Older office buildings tend to be geared towards small offices for smaller businesses, like small law practices. Modern cubicle farms are much larger, open offices even more so. Also, older regulations on building forms pre-war required more setbacks at taller heights, creating the “wedding-cake” style tower common during that time. The modern glass box is generally wider.
    - 4y ago
Terretta 4y ago
This is how cities -- cities without commercial on street level and residential above, cities where you need to own a car -- die. By and large, U.S. does cities wrong.
- tomjakubowski 4y ago
  Fortunately for San Francisco, "commercial on street level and residential above" does describe many of its neighborhoods
- refurb 4y ago
  That doesn't describe SF in the least.
  - Terretta 4y ago
    Didn't say it did. OP said this is how cities die, my point is there's a type that is more at risk, and most U.S. cities are that type.
    - refurb 4y ago
      Then I don't understand your comment. Grandparent said "this is how cities die" related to remote working and emptying the downtown core - as is happening SF. You then said "This is how cities -- cities without commercial on street level and residential above, cities where you need to own a car -- die." The topic is San Francisco. So am I to read your comment as completely unrelated to the topic at hand?
      - rovolo 4y ago
        The phrase "cities without commercial on street level and residential above, cities where you need to own a car" is adding a condition onto "this is how cities die" to say that the original prediction doesn't apply to SF. Because SF has "commercial on street level and residential above" and you don't "need to own a car", people in the rest of the city depend less on the downtown. While downtown may be abandoned, it's not heart of the rest of the city. At least that's what Terretta is saying. I haven't even visited SF in over a decade, so I don't know what its current situation is like.
tpm 4y ago
If the downtown gets abandoned by offices, it can be populated by something else epxloiting lower prices, as has happened countless times throughout the history. Take London's Soho for example: first populated by wealthy families and Huguenots, then abandoned by them and taken over by prostitutes and such, which ultimately made it the centre of entertainment with new theatres and music venues, made cool by gays, and then gentrified again by the wealthy. It's a circle, not a line.

This is how cities die. If the downtown gets abandoned the heart of the city stops beating. The whole premise of a city is a high density area to get economies of scale on many public goods.

nemothekid 4y ago

It's hard to describe downtown/fidi as the heart of the city. It was already pretty dead on weekends compared to the rest of the city in 2019. OTOH, rents have been stubbornly flat or growing in other parts of the city. Places like the mission, hayes valley, marina, north beach and polk are very lively now and I'm back to struggling at getting reservations at some of my favorite places outside of downtown. I think what suffers the most is tourism - as places like Union Square, downtown and fisherman's wharf are relatively empty.

heleninboodler 4y ago

Yep, going to hell in a handbasket. Just terrible. Most certainly going to be a desolate wasteland before long. I'll do you a favor and buy your house.

Kon-Peki 4y ago

> This is how cities die. If the downtown gets abandoned the heart of the city stops beating. My office is in a 90+ year old skyscraper in Chicago. Our building is not renewing leases; they’re trying to empty it out to convert to residential. At our last town hall the CEO said he’s hearing talk about incentives to terminate leases early. In the Chicago Loop, population is up 10% since before the pandemic, and expected to continue to increase faster than new construction can handle, so there is real demand for converting old office buildings. Old buildings typically have ideal floor plates. New office buildings are bad, but there was a story in The NY Times just the other day about a developer who cut a vertical hole in the middle of a newer skyscraper in Manhattan so the giant rectangular floor plate became an O-shape, allowing apartments along the interior of the building to have windows opening to an interior courtyard. SF really needs to get on the ball before the damage to the city is too great.

ghaff 4y ago
That was a good piece in the NY Times. I'm skeptical about what probably an expensive lower-story apartment with a view out into basically a lightwell would be like. I've had hotel rooms like that but maybe this is better done.
- Kon-Peki 4y ago
  I’d be really skeptical too, and I hope the price-per-square-foot is much lower to compensate. I would imagine that some well-angled mirrors near the top of the building can greatly increase the amount of light that goes down that hole.
- rsync 4y ago
  "I'm skeptical about what probably an expensive lower-story apartment with a view out into basically a lightwell would be like." The key here (I assume) is that it is a 90 year old skyscraper (according to your parent) and those older buildings are, generally, easier to convert and have a smaller floor plate, etc. Of course I have no idea about this particular building but word on the street is, older office buildings have a better chance of being good candidates.
  - rippercushions 4y ago
    I would assume older buildings to have larger floor plates? Many of New York's newer skyscrapers, esp. the "one luxury apartment per floor" kind, are really skinny.
    - bobthepanda 4y ago
      For office buildings, no. Older office buildings tend to be geared towards small offices for smaller businesses, like small law practices. Modern cubicle farms are much larger, open offices even more so. Also, older regulations on building forms pre-war required more setbacks at taller heights, creating the “wedding-cake” style tower common during that time. The modern glass box is generally wider.
  - 4y ago

Terretta 4y ago

This is how cities -- cities without commercial on street level and residential above, cities where you need to own a car -- die. By and large, U.S. does cities wrong.

tomjakubowski 4y ago
Fortunately for San Francisco, "commercial on street level and residential above" does describe many of its neighborhoods
refurb 4y ago
That doesn't describe SF in the least.
- Terretta 4y ago
  Didn't say it did. OP said this is how cities die, my point is there's a type that is more at risk, and most U.S. cities are that type.
  - refurb 4y ago
    Then I don't understand your comment. Grandparent said "this is how cities die" related to remote working and emptying the downtown core - as is happening SF. You then said "This is how cities -- cities without commercial on street level and residential above, cities where you need to own a car -- die." The topic is San Francisco. So am I to read your comment as completely unrelated to the topic at hand?
    - rovolo 4y ago
      The phrase "cities without commercial on street level and residential above, cities where you need to own a car" is adding a condition onto "this is how cities die" to say that the original prediction doesn't apply to SF. Because SF has "commercial on street level and residential above" and you don't "need to own a car", people in the rest of the city depend less on the downtown. While downtown may be abandoned, it's not heart of the rest of the city. At least that's what Terretta is saying. I haven't even visited SF in over a decade, so I don't know what its current situation is like.

tpm 4y ago

If the downtown gets abandoned by offices, it can be populated by something else epxloiting lower prices, as has happened countless times throughout the history. Take London's Soho for example: first populated by wealthy families and Huguenots, then abandoned by them and taken over by prostitutes and such, which ultimately made it the centre of entertainment with new theatres and music venues, made cool by gays, and then gentrified again by the wealthy. It's a circle, not a line.