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France has unions out the wazoo, yet you don’t see nearly the level of cost increases.

by nukeman 4y ago

debacle 4y ago
France has real unions. The US has graft disguised as organized labor, and New York has some of the worst.
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  Graft, maybe, maybe not, but the real hallmark of US unions is their general refusal to be political organizations, unlike their counterparts in Europe and elsewhere. Oh, sure, they throw money in the pot for candidates, but in Europe, unions take actual political positions on important matters. They do not often get their way, but they act as an important counterweight in politics to the interests of the rich and powerful.
  - mike50 4y ago
    Not select public sector unions in New York. PBA and NYUST get whatever they want.
stametseater 4y ago
France has French unions, America has American unions. Each are run according to different sets of rules and in different social contexts.
- nukeman 4y ago
  The major point is ultimately that the organization of labor does not inherently lead to higher project costs. You may be right that the peculiarities of American labor are one potential cause of higher costs.
ars 4y ago
European style unions are not the same thing as American style ones, despite both being called unions. I wish they had different names because they are quite different.
- nukeman 4y ago
  And what would you say makes them different?
  - ars 4y ago
    In Europe you have multiple unions for an employer, and employees pick between them - so they compete on price and what they offer. In the US you are forced into a single union for an employer. In Europe the union is for the employees, they have lots of employees from a wide variety of places, and they offer them services. In the US the union is for the employer - they stand in between the employee and the employer and purport to decide what's best for the employee.
midoridensha 4y ago
This always comes up when unions in America are blamed for these problems. Unions are strong in both France and Germany and they don't have most of these problems. The answer is corruption. America is horribly corrupt, much like Latin American nations, and unlike western European nations. So unions in Europe actually work the way they're supposed to, whereas in America they're just another corrupt institution, probably much more corrupt in fact than most others, and cause more problems than they solve. How do you get America to have unions like those in Europe? I have no idea, but I think it's like asking how you can turn Afghanistan into a country similar to Norway.
- ars 4y ago
  > How do you get America to have unions like those in Europe? Easy. Allow the employee to pick the union - you can have more than one union per employer. Or no union at all if that's what the employee wants. That's the only change needed. If like, add a second change: It's not longer necessary to make an employer be a "union shop" any employer can have employees represented by unions, if that's what the employee wants.

France has unions out the wazoo, yet you don’t see nearly the level of cost increases.

debacle 4y ago

France has real unions. The US has graft disguised as organized labor, and New York has some of the worst.

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
Graft, maybe, maybe not, but the real hallmark of US unions is their general refusal to be political organizations, unlike their counterparts in Europe and elsewhere. Oh, sure, they throw money in the pot for candidates, but in Europe, unions take actual political positions on important matters. They do not often get their way, but they act as an important counterweight in politics to the interests of the rich and powerful.
- mike50 4y ago
  Not select public sector unions in New York. PBA and NYUST get whatever they want.

stametseater 4y ago

France has French unions, America has American unions. Each are run according to different sets of rules and in different social contexts.

nukeman 4y ago
The major point is ultimately that the organization of labor does not inherently lead to higher project costs. You may be right that the peculiarities of American labor are one potential cause of higher costs.

ars 4y ago

European style unions are not the same thing as American style ones, despite both being called unions. I wish they had different names because they are quite different.

nukeman 4y ago
And what would you say makes them different?
- ars 4y ago
  In Europe you have multiple unions for an employer, and employees pick between them - so they compete on price and what they offer. In the US you are forced into a single union for an employer. In Europe the union is for the employees, they have lots of employees from a wide variety of places, and they offer them services. In the US the union is for the employer - they stand in between the employee and the employer and purport to decide what's best for the employee.

midoridensha 4y ago

This always comes up when unions in America are blamed for these problems. Unions are strong in both France and Germany and they don't have most of these problems. The answer is corruption. America is horribly corrupt, much like Latin American nations, and unlike western European nations. So unions in Europe actually work the way they're supposed to, whereas in America they're just another corrupt institution, probably much more corrupt in fact than most others, and cause more problems than they solve. How do you get America to have unions like those in Europe? I have no idea, but I think it's like asking how you can turn Afghanistan into a country similar to Norway.

ars 4y ago
> How do you get America to have unions like those in Europe? Easy. Allow the employee to pick the union - you can have more than one union per employer. Or no union at all if that's what the employee wants. That's the only change needed. If like, add a second change: It's not longer necessary to make an employer be a "union shop" any employer can have employees represented by unions, if that's what the employee wants.