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> I concluded long ago that if I made studying the market my full time job and hobby I could make a good income doing it I'd be curious how you reached this co

> I concluded long ago that if I made studying the market my full time job and hobby I could make a good income doing it I'd be curious how you reached this conclusion. The outside view (lots of academic papers on this) is that nobody beats the market over a long time frame. I've often thought this assumes scale-invariance; as I look to make lower volumes of money, I'll see things that aren't worth a real trader's time. Another way I can see this as true is if you don't need to have the money invested all the time - if you strategically pick 1 investment every 5 years, can I expect to beat the market by picking the absolute best trade? Despite those ideas, I concluded long ago that nobody can beat the market over time, with maybe 1-2 exceptions.

bluGill 4y ago
There are a handful of people - Peter Lynch, Warren Buffet... That over the years have proven that thesis false. The vast majority do not beat the market, but the vast majority are investing on emotion and fads. I would have completely missed amazon and google, but there were other companies that would for a while grow at better than market rates that I would have found (or so I think!), and would have been able to get out of in time (this isn't hard because I don't need to call the top, I can be off by many months and still have a nice return). These companies carry much less downside risk vs dot coms - most of which failed, and part of doing well long term is ensuring that your losses are not good because you will have them from time to time. Note that you don't have to beat the market by much to pull this off so long as you live cheap those first years.
- edmundsauto 4y ago
  > nobody can beat the market over time, with maybe 1-2 exceptions. Apologies for the poor wording. Agreed there do appear to be a few people who beat the market regularly. My perspective is those people are not using the same tools available to even elite traders - Buffett gets really good deals because of who he is. That kind of thing isn't available to anyone else and in the context of "could GP beat the market if they worked really hard and were really smart", it rounds to "nobody can beat it".
hnfong 4y ago
I haven't read those academic papers you mentioned so I might have missed some insights, but after thinking about it on and off for a while my thoughts on it are: 1. Many people trading on the stock market are professional traders who do it as a full time job, and they have access to information and tools that you don't. So unless you expend similar amount of time in studying the markets, it's highly unlikely you'd beat them. 2. Even the best traders generally beat the market by a couple percent on average. So in order to compensate for time cost of equivalent to a full time job on studying the markets, the fund you're investing needs to be: (your salary / x%) -- Let's say you expect 100k salary, and somehow you can beat the market by 5% if you put in the time, then you need a fund of 100k/0.05 = 2000k for the enterprise to "break even" so to speak. 3. Most people don't have 2 million to invest. And even if they do, they don't want to spend 40+ hours a week studying the stock market. So, since trading is basically a zero sum game, most people who invest small amounts of money perform worse than the market. This doesn't even go into the tricky details of determining whether your performance is due to skill or luck (or lack thereof). The 5% is subtle enough, but not having any degree of certainty at all makes reviewing your decisions and trying to improve your trading skills even harder. That said, there's probably more than a couple people besides the big names who can pull this off. It's just that even if you consistently beat the market, it takes a long time for people (including yourself?) to notice, because the effects are so subtle at first. In a sense Warren Buffet owes his fame not only to his skill but also to his age, and his willingness to engage in the activity even when he has all the money in the world. I suspect most other people find other interesting things to do once they earn a hundred million or so since it's more money than they ever need...
- edmundsauto 4y ago
  This is a reasonable summary of mutual funds not beating the market. I think it's maybe a single-digit number of individuals can do it, but the reasonable default should be something like "a number that rounds to 0% of money managers in any format are able to beat the market over a long time frame". https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/02/business/stock-market-index-funds.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/02/business/stock-market-ind...

bluGill 4y ago

There are a handful of people - Peter Lynch, Warren Buffet... That over the years have proven that thesis false. The vast majority do not beat the market, but the vast majority are investing on emotion and fads. I would have completely missed amazon and google, but there were other companies that would for a while grow at better than market rates that I would have found (or so I think!), and would have been able to get out of in time (this isn't hard because I don't need to call the top, I can be off by many months and still have a nice return). These companies carry much less downside risk vs dot coms - most of which failed, and part of doing well long term is ensuring that your losses are not good because you will have them from time to time. Note that you don't have to beat the market by much to pull this off so long as you live cheap those first years.

edmundsauto 4y ago
> nobody can beat the market over time, with maybe 1-2 exceptions. Apologies for the poor wording. Agreed there do appear to be a few people who beat the market regularly. My perspective is those people are not using the same tools available to even elite traders - Buffett gets really good deals because of who he is. That kind of thing isn't available to anyone else and in the context of "could GP beat the market if they worked really hard and were really smart", it rounds to "nobody can beat it".

hnfong 4y ago

I haven't read those academic papers you mentioned so I might have missed some insights, but after thinking about it on and off for a while my thoughts on it are: 1. Many people trading on the stock market are professional traders who do it as a full time job, and they have access to information and tools that you don't. So unless you expend similar amount of time in studying the markets, it's highly unlikely you'd beat them. 2. Even the best traders generally beat the market by a couple percent on average. So in order to compensate for time cost of equivalent to a full time job on studying the markets, the fund you're investing needs to be: (your salary / x%) -- Let's say you expect 100k salary, and somehow you can beat the market by 5% if you put in the time, then you need a fund of 100k/0.05 = 2000k for the enterprise to "break even" so to speak. 3. Most people don't have 2 million to invest. And even if they do, they don't want to spend 40+ hours a week studying the stock market. So, since trading is basically a zero sum game, most people who invest small amounts of money perform worse than the market. This doesn't even go into the tricky details of determining whether your performance is due to skill or luck (or lack thereof). The 5% is subtle enough, but not having any degree of certainty at all makes reviewing your decisions and trying to improve your trading skills even harder. That said, there's probably more than a couple people besides the big names who can pull this off. It's just that even if you consistently beat the market, it takes a long time for people (including yourself?) to notice, because the effects are so subtle at first. In a sense Warren Buffet owes his fame not only to his skill but also to his age, and his willingness to engage in the activity even when he has all the money in the world. I suspect most other people find other interesting things to do once they earn a hundred million or so since it's more money than they ever need...

edmundsauto 4y ago
This is a reasonable summary of mutual funds not beating the market. I think it's maybe a single-digit number of individuals can do it, but the reasonable default should be something like "a number that rounds to 0% of money managers in any format are able to beat the market over a long time frame". https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/02/business/stock-market-index-funds.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/02/business/stock-market-ind...