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Paul Krugman talked about the "Apple is evil" side of the argument many years ago. http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/smokey.html http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/sm

by Lazare 15y ago

Paul Krugman talked about the "Apple is evil" side of the argument many years ago. http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/smokey.html http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/smokey.html http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/ricardo.htm http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/ricardo.htm Key quote: "At best, forcing developing countries to adhere to our labor standards would create a privileged labor aristocracy, leaving the poor majority no better off. And it might not even do that. [...] A policy of good jobs in principle, but no jobs in practice, might assuage our consciences, but it is no favor to its alleged beneficiaries." Is he wrong? (Please don't downvote me just because you disagree with Krugman.)

rictic 15y ago
There's a difference between a job with low wages and long hours, and a job that poisons or cripples. I think that, to the extent that this exists, it's fair to call out the companies responsible. It also seems particularly egregious when there are known alternatives with much reduced harm (different chemicals, shift rotation to prevent repetitive stress).
backprojection 15y ago
These kinds of arguments strike me as apologetic - like an intellectual wild card that you can use to not worry about the downside of what you're buying. I'm not saying they're wrong, maybe he's right about labor standards. I'm just highly skeptical of this line of thinking.
tripzilch 15y ago
I dunno, did you read the OP? Maybe Krugman has a fair point if we were "merely" talking about severely underpaid workers making way too many hours[1], but it doesn't explain this: > The account of how Apple's factories substituted n-hexane, a neurotoxin with well-documented long term adverse health effects, for alcohol to wipe those shining screens clean, gaining a miniscule advantage in drying time but exposing workers to a lifetime of disablement [1] a fair point, which I will consider as soon as such a situation actually presents itself in reality. I bet it will be a factory that manufactures containers for thermodynamically closed systems, which are to be sold on a free market to rational agents. Now clap your hands.
- ugh 15y ago
  Supplier Report 2010, page 20 (PDF): http://images.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/pdf/Apple_SR_2011_Progress_Report.pdf http://images.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/pdf/Apple_SR_...
- mikeash 15y ago
  Apple doesn't have factories, they outsource their production. Large corporations, whether Apple or Foxconn, will pretty much inevitably do things like this if they perceive a net benefit in it. This is a Chinese company under the jurisdiction of the Chinese government. The Chinese government is in the best position, both morally and practically, to put a stop to these abuses to their own people. How much has Foxconn been fined due to this? How have the people who made and approved this decision been punished? My guess is that the answer is "not at all", and that's where the outrage really ought to be focused.
rockarage 15y ago
China is far from a developing country. So this isn't about taking advantage of a developing nation. It's very difficult for many foreign company to start a business in China. These are companies that China has approved that are mistreating the Chinese people. The bulk of the blame falls on China for allowing their people to be used like robots. You can't openly treat American workers like this because American government won't legally allow it. The Chinese government has the all the power to dictate what a business can do in China. The government use it's power on many occasion silent dissent, why not use that power to help it's own people ?
- beatle 15y ago
  Reminds me of a scene from Rambo. John J. Rambo: Burma's a warzone. Missionary: Our church is part of a pan-Asian ministry, located in Colorado. We are all volunteers who, around this time of year, bring in medical supplies, medical attention, prayer books, and support to the Karen tribespeople. People say you know the river better than anyone. John J. Rambo: Are you bringing any weapons? Missionary: Of course not. John J. Rambo: You're not changing anything.
- Volpe 15y ago
  China uses a lot of it's power to try and stop things just like this. What evidence do you have that they haven't tried? Are you seriously going to try and argue the US doesn't exploit "American" workers? Or are you defining "American worker" as someone with american citizenship rather than a worker in america. I still find it amazing the lack of 'personal accountablity' in your response. Companies aren't bad for exploiting people, countries are bad for letting them... seriously?
  - rockarage 15y ago
    Not true, I said I would used an alternative to Apple if all tech companies did not produce computers in similar or worse factories. The bulk of the blame, not all of the blame, has to fall on Chinese government. The government is in the business of protecting it's people from foreign dangers. These multinational companies are allowing things to happen to foreigners (the chinese people) that would be illegal in their home nation. The Chinese government has the bulk of the blame because Chinese government approved these companies, the Chinese Government approves of every single foreign entity, it's not hands off. Immediately the abuses would stop if the Chinese government ordered it to. The Government can not protect it's own people from foreign harm, (foxxcon is not a Chinese company) then that Government should be blamed. No China is not using its power to stop this because if it did it won't happen on such a large scale. Moreover I never said American workers are not exploited, it happens, but what is happening in China is far worse.

by Lazare 15y ago

rictic 15y ago

There's a difference between a job with low wages and long hours, and a job that poisons or cripples. I think that, to the extent that this exists, it's fair to call out the companies responsible. It also seems particularly egregious when there are known alternatives with much reduced harm (different chemicals, shift rotation to prevent repetitive stress).

backprojection 15y ago

These kinds of arguments strike me as apologetic - like an intellectual wild card that you can use to not worry about the downside of what you're buying. I'm not saying they're wrong, maybe he's right about labor standards. I'm just highly skeptical of this line of thinking.

tripzilch 15y ago

I dunno, did you read the OP? Maybe Krugman has a fair point if we were "merely" talking about severely underpaid workers making way too many hours[1], but it doesn't explain this: > The account of how Apple's factories substituted n-hexane, a neurotoxin with well-documented long term adverse health effects, for alcohol to wipe those shining screens clean, gaining a miniscule advantage in drying time but exposing workers to a lifetime of disablement [1] a fair point, which I will consider as soon as such a situation actually presents itself in reality. I bet it will be a factory that manufactures containers for thermodynamically closed systems, which are to be sold on a free market to rational agents. Now clap your hands.

ugh 15y ago
Supplier Report 2010, page 20 (PDF): http://images.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/pdf/Apple_SR_2011_Progress_Report.pdf http://images.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/pdf/Apple_SR_...
mikeash 15y ago
Apple doesn't have factories, they outsource their production. Large corporations, whether Apple or Foxconn, will pretty much inevitably do things like this if they perceive a net benefit in it. This is a Chinese company under the jurisdiction of the Chinese government. The Chinese government is in the best position, both morally and practically, to put a stop to these abuses to their own people. How much has Foxconn been fined due to this? How have the people who made and approved this decision been punished? My guess is that the answer is "not at all", and that's where the outrage really ought to be focused.

rockarage 15y ago

China is far from a developing country. So this isn't about taking advantage of a developing nation. It's very difficult for many foreign company to start a business in China. These are companies that China has approved that are mistreating the Chinese people. The bulk of the blame falls on China for allowing their people to be used like robots. You can't openly treat American workers like this because American government won't legally allow it. The Chinese government has the all the power to dictate what a business can do in China. The government use it's power on many occasion silent dissent, why not use that power to help it's own people ?

beatle 15y ago
Reminds me of a scene from Rambo. John J. Rambo: Burma's a warzone. Missionary: Our church is part of a pan-Asian ministry, located in Colorado. We are all volunteers who, around this time of year, bring in medical supplies, medical attention, prayer books, and support to the Karen tribespeople. People say you know the river better than anyone. John J. Rambo: Are you bringing any weapons? Missionary: Of course not. John J. Rambo: You're not changing anything.
Volpe 15y ago
China uses a lot of it's power to try and stop things just like this. What evidence do you have that they haven't tried? Are you seriously going to try and argue the US doesn't exploit "American" workers? Or are you defining "American worker" as someone with american citizenship rather than a worker in america. I still find it amazing the lack of 'personal accountablity' in your response. Companies aren't bad for exploiting people, countries are bad for letting them... seriously?
- rockarage 15y ago
  Not true, I said I would used an alternative to Apple if all tech companies did not produce computers in similar or worse factories. The bulk of the blame, not all of the blame, has to fall on Chinese government. The government is in the business of protecting it's people from foreign dangers. These multinational companies are allowing things to happen to foreigners (the chinese people) that would be illegal in their home nation. The Chinese government has the bulk of the blame because Chinese government approved these companies, the Chinese Government approves of every single foreign entity, it's not hands off. Immediately the abuses would stop if the Chinese government ordered it to. The Government can not protect it's own people from foreign harm, (foxxcon is not a Chinese company) then that Government should be blamed. No China is not using its power to stop this because if it did it won't happen on such a large scale. Moreover I never said American workers are not exploited, it happens, but what is happening in China is far worse.