5 ms·

There are a lot of fictions that are valuable to society. Might this one be important to hold up for the sake of "incels"? In the end, you'll get the girl and t

by Lucent 4y ago

There are a lot of fictions that are valuable to society. Might this one be important to hold up for the sake of "incels"? In the end, you'll get the girl and the jerk will be lonely, so until then don't get too angry and continue being a productive member of society.

luckylion 4y ago
I don't know. Christianity tells the same story, and that worked well enough, but there's always the question of whether people don't go crazy because of the fairy tale, or whether they look for the fairy tale to keep themselves from becoming depressed over their powerlessness. It's a story that's still deeply embedded in cultural storytelling even as society becomes less religious. I can't tell whether it's not working well because people are discontent or whether it's working well because without it they'd run amok.
dsfyu404ed 4y ago
These fictions are like using substance abuse to forget about your problems but at a societal level. Sure, you can get high and forget your life sucks but putting in the actual work to make life not suck is better in the long run. We should fix our problems rather than papering over them with damage control and coping mechanisms.
t-3 4y ago
Ah, probably not. I get the impression that most incels are bitter because following the rules and being good hasn't brought the rewards they were promised by fiction. In reality, the pretty girl and the ugly nerd with a good heart rarely end up together. Honesty and persistence are punished. Confidence is more valued than intellect. The exposure of societal lies through experienced reality leads to radicalization and resentment just as often as apathy and depression.
- edmundsauto 4y ago
  > In reality, the pretty girl and the ugly nerd with a good heart rarely end up together. This is complex the ugly nerd often only thinks they have a good heart. It's their self-perception, which, if you listen to women, is not a shared perception.
  - bmarquez 4y ago
    Yeah it's complex, the perceptions regarding who has a "good heart" are also skewed due to the halo effect where attractive people get higher ratings, which ugly nerds lose out on. The opposite gender counterexample is a "jerk with a heart of gold."
  - t-3 4y ago
    I'm sure there's some truth to what you're saying, but it's also a fact that people who break all the rules and are pretty objectively 'bad' are rarely punished in the court of sexual selection. A history of illegal activity, violence, lying, stealing, etc. are rarely going to be a demerit in comparison to being short or having a stutter. The myth that people are really considering non-physical factors into their mating choices is not really helping anyone, and probably actually hurting the dating market by proliferating unrealistic expectations.
    - edmundsauto 4y ago
      Isn't that a contradiction? If humans never adversely selected against jerkness, how did we evolve kind people? > The myth that people are really considering non-physical factors into their mating choices Did you mean that people primarily select for physical attractiveness? This reads like you think people never consider non-physical factors, which I think is trivially disprovable. Look, I'm not saying that hot people don't fuck more often. But I am saying that the ugly nerd with a heart of gold is ... also a toxic narrative, and is based on the nerd's belief they have a heart of gold. I frequently read the 2x chromosome subreddit for what interactions with self-professed "nice guys" are like, and I wouldn't for a minute think these dudes are even halfway decent people.
      - t-3 4y ago
        > Isn't that a contradiction? If humans never adversely selected against jerkness, how did we evolve kind people? In my experience, most people aren't all that kind to people they're not related to or well-acquainted with. Those that are tend to be taken advantage of and looked down on. > Did you mean that people primarily select for physical attractiveness? This reads like you think people never consider non-physical factors, which I think is trivially disprovable. People do sometimes consider non-physical factors, but only after they filter based on physical attractiveness, and usually that's only for long-term mate selection rather than casual sex or affairs. Like, I'm a complete POS with a horrible attitude and personality, no money or job, and an extensive criminal record, but I never have difficulty finding sex partners because I'm slightly above average in height and have a symmetrical face. My friend who works hard, is always honest, and will give you the shirt off his back - he can't get the time of day because 5'2".

by Lucent 4y ago

luckylion 4y ago

I don't know. Christianity tells the same story, and that worked well enough, but there's always the question of whether people don't go crazy because of the fairy tale, or whether they look for the fairy tale to keep themselves from becoming depressed over their powerlessness. It's a story that's still deeply embedded in cultural storytelling even as society becomes less religious. I can't tell whether it's not working well because people are discontent or whether it's working well because without it they'd run amok.

dsfyu404ed 4y ago

These fictions are like using substance abuse to forget about your problems but at a societal level. Sure, you can get high and forget your life sucks but putting in the actual work to make life not suck is better in the long run. We should fix our problems rather than papering over them with damage control and coping mechanisms.

t-3 4y ago

Ah, probably not. I get the impression that most incels are bitter because following the rules and being good hasn't brought the rewards they were promised by fiction. In reality, the pretty girl and the ugly nerd with a good heart rarely end up together. Honesty and persistence are punished. Confidence is more valued than intellect. The exposure of societal lies through experienced reality leads to radicalization and resentment just as often as apathy and depression.

edmundsauto 4y ago
> In reality, the pretty girl and the ugly nerd with a good heart rarely end up together. This is complex the ugly nerd often only thinks they have a good heart. It's their self-perception, which, if you listen to women, is not a shared perception.
- bmarquez 4y ago
  Yeah it's complex, the perceptions regarding who has a "good heart" are also skewed due to the halo effect where attractive people get higher ratings, which ugly nerds lose out on. The opposite gender counterexample is a "jerk with a heart of gold."
- t-3 4y ago
  I'm sure there's some truth to what you're saying, but it's also a fact that people who break all the rules and are pretty objectively 'bad' are rarely punished in the court of sexual selection. A history of illegal activity, violence, lying, stealing, etc. are rarely going to be a demerit in comparison to being short or having a stutter. The myth that people are really considering non-physical factors into their mating choices is not really helping anyone, and probably actually hurting the dating market by proliferating unrealistic expectations.
  - edmundsauto 4y ago
    Isn't that a contradiction? If humans never adversely selected against jerkness, how did we evolve kind people? > The myth that people are really considering non-physical factors into their mating choices Did you mean that people primarily select for physical attractiveness? This reads like you think people never consider non-physical factors, which I think is trivially disprovable. Look, I'm not saying that hot people don't fuck more often. But I am saying that the ugly nerd with a heart of gold is ... also a toxic narrative, and is based on the nerd's belief they have a heart of gold. I frequently read the 2x chromosome subreddit for what interactions with self-professed "nice guys" are like, and I wouldn't for a minute think these dudes are even halfway decent people.
    - t-3 4y ago
      > Isn't that a contradiction? If humans never adversely selected against jerkness, how did we evolve kind people? In my experience, most people aren't all that kind to people they're not related to or well-acquainted with. Those that are tend to be taken advantage of and looked down on. > Did you mean that people primarily select for physical attractiveness? This reads like you think people never consider non-physical factors, which I think is trivially disprovable. People do sometimes consider non-physical factors, but only after they filter based on physical attractiveness, and usually that's only for long-term mate selection rather than casual sex or affairs. Like, I'm a complete POS with a horrible attitude and personality, no money or job, and an extensive criminal record, but I never have difficulty finding sex partners because I'm slightly above average in height and have a symmetrical face. My friend who works hard, is always honest, and will give you the shirt off his back - he can't get the time of day because 5'2".