4 ms·

I never understood why Christian doctrine took issue with usury until I got older. I get it now. Over time, it compounds, and that compounding ends up magnifyin

I never understood why Christian doctrine took issue with usury until I got older. I get it now. Over time, it compounds, and that compounding ends up magnifying and consolidating power, warping things in the process. Plus, the brunt of the pain is borne by those less fortunate. It is unsustainable.

AndrewKemendo 4y ago
This is reflected in the relative wealth of Christian vs Islamic communities, as Islamic communities religiously reject usury
- skee8383 4y ago
  They also function in a tribal manner where judeo christians do not, jewish and islamic communities help each other they don't have as many factions and in fighting as christians do. when a muslim or a jew opens a business they hire family and friends and people from their religious community, christians will hire anyone because that's what the christian religion is about, helping people regardless of who they are. it's very noble but in a capitalistic economic system it doesn't give christians any advantage.
  - matt1555 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - skee8383 4y ago
      I never said that. lol. but they probably don't practice it amongst themselves.
  - snozolli 4y ago
    christians will hire anyone because that's what the christian religion is about I get the feeling you've never lived around Evangelicals or Mormons. Joining the right church is a long-standing method of business/career networking.
    - skee8383 4y ago
      only my whole life. evangelicals that is. i don't know much about mormons. but the evangelicals around my era are very multicultural and allow anyone in their church regardless of who they are and they will hire anyone at the businesses they own.
      - snozolli 4y ago
        and they will hire anyone at the businesses they own. I don't think you realize the business opportunities you're missing out on. They aren't exclusively hiring their own, but it's human nature to trust those closer to you. I've seen this heavily reflected in the evangelical and Mormon communities, but you'd never know unless you had insight via friends or family.
- recursivedoubts 4y ago
  Usury is not why Christian nations are wealthier. Usury crushed the roman empire, which is why the Christian church, which took over administration when it fell apart, banned it. A lack of tribalism and a high-trust society, heavily influenced by the Church's ban on cousin marriage, is why the west was able to become so wealthy.
  - hellisothers 4y ago
    Where can I read about the second sentence?
    - whitemary 4y ago
      The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism By Max Weber OK fine, it's a slightly different thesis but it's the correct one ;)
      - hellisothers 4y ago
        Its weird to say but that title sounds fascinating! :D
        whitemary 4y ago
        Humanity did not deserve the Frankfurt School.
  - ineedasername 4y ago
    The idea of dischargeable debt (bankruptcy) probably helped too. People may be a lot more willing to take risks that require capital but increase economic welfare if they don’t face prison for themselves and complete ruin for their family if the risk doesn’t pay off.
    - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
      Maybe we'd have better businesses if you couldn't run them right to the wall and safely declare bankruptcy while keeping your profits. There's a theory that the faster things happen, the better - where we forgive outright fraud because it's theoretically driving commerce. In my experience, badly run (or intentionally fraudulent) businesses actually kill an entire area of commerce - by cheating and often going bankrupt on suppliers who then go out of business themselves rather than being able to provide their product to actually competitive companies who would remain in business.
js8 4y ago
Actually, Michael Hudson argued that even Sumerians knew that, so they had a debt jubilee everytime a king has died (and from that comes the phrase "clean slate"). Despite all the technology, we are not really much smarter today.
- prottog 4y ago
  > so they had a debt jubilee everytime a king has died From this I can gather that Sumerian kings on average didn't live very long. ;-)
  - whitemary 4y ago
    Or they were a good king and didn't let debt build up.
- green_man_lives 4y ago
  I would assume that most of the early Mesopotamian societies were the same. IOUs were the first form of currency, used for trade and bookkeeping. But after a while you'd see consolidation of wealth in the hands of a few, which would have been antithetical to the everything they knew at the time (group > individual).
- ineedasername 4y ago
  I imagine that a spasm of anxiety went through every lender’s gut whenever a king so much as sneezed.
- ajmurmann 4y ago
  So I would only get a mortgage when the king is young? I assume interest rates would go up with the age of the king?
Kalium 4y ago
You have to bear in mind that usury prohibitions quickly became entangled with power structures. Owing money to powerful people is a problem for noble or royal debtors. Owing money to people you can exile or murder as you see fit is convenient and provides multiple ways to resolve the issue.
- Pet_Ant 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Jews_from_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Jews_from_Spain > They also had serious difficulties in recovering money lent to Christians because either the repayment term was after August 10, the deadline for their departure, or many of the debtors claimed "usury fraud," knowing that the Jews would not have time for the courts to rule in their favor.
- ineedasername 4y ago
  Yes, the powerful created their own “debt jubilee” at times: “Due to the precarious position of Jews, some nobles could ignore their debts. If the sponsoring noble died, his Jewish financier could face exile or execution.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_Jew https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_Jew
pjc50 4y ago
Prohibitions on usury date from a time before modern bankruptcy laws; there used to be debtor's prisons. If debt is truly inescapable (and in some places and times hereditary!), and can lead to the lender inflicting that level of consequence, usury looks a lot more scary.

AndrewKemendo 4y ago

This is reflected in the relative wealth of Christian vs Islamic communities, as Islamic communities religiously reject usury

skee8383 4y ago
They also function in a tribal manner where judeo christians do not, jewish and islamic communities help each other they don't have as many factions and in fighting as christians do. when a muslim or a jew opens a business they hire family and friends and people from their religious community, christians will hire anyone because that's what the christian religion is about, helping people regardless of who they are. it's very noble but in a capitalistic economic system it doesn't give christians any advantage.
- matt1555 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - skee8383 4y ago
    I never said that. lol. but they probably don't practice it amongst themselves.
- snozolli 4y ago
  christians will hire anyone because that's what the christian religion is about I get the feeling you've never lived around Evangelicals or Mormons. Joining the right church is a long-standing method of business/career networking.
  - skee8383 4y ago
    only my whole life. evangelicals that is. i don't know much about mormons. but the evangelicals around my era are very multicultural and allow anyone in their church regardless of who they are and they will hire anyone at the businesses they own.
    - snozolli 4y ago
      and they will hire anyone at the businesses they own. I don't think you realize the business opportunities you're missing out on. They aren't exclusively hiring their own, but it's human nature to trust those closer to you. I've seen this heavily reflected in the evangelical and Mormon communities, but you'd never know unless you had insight via friends or family.
recursivedoubts 4y ago
Usury is not why Christian nations are wealthier. Usury crushed the roman empire, which is why the Christian church, which took over administration when it fell apart, banned it. A lack of tribalism and a high-trust society, heavily influenced by the Church's ban on cousin marriage, is why the west was able to become so wealthy.
- hellisothers 4y ago
  Where can I read about the second sentence?
  - whitemary 4y ago
    The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism By Max Weber OK fine, it's a slightly different thesis but it's the correct one ;)
    - hellisothers 4y ago
      Its weird to say but that title sounds fascinating! :D
      - whitemary 4y ago
        Humanity did not deserve the Frankfurt School.
- ineedasername 4y ago
  The idea of dischargeable debt (bankruptcy) probably helped too. People may be a lot more willing to take risks that require capital but increase economic welfare if they don’t face prison for themselves and complete ruin for their family if the risk doesn’t pay off.
  - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
    Maybe we'd have better businesses if you couldn't run them right to the wall and safely declare bankruptcy while keeping your profits. There's a theory that the faster things happen, the better - where we forgive outright fraud because it's theoretically driving commerce. In my experience, badly run (or intentionally fraudulent) businesses actually kill an entire area of commerce - by cheating and often going bankrupt on suppliers who then go out of business themselves rather than being able to provide their product to actually competitive companies who would remain in business.

js8 4y ago

Actually, Michael Hudson argued that even Sumerians knew that, so they had a debt jubilee everytime a king has died (and from that comes the phrase "clean slate"). Despite all the technology, we are not really much smarter today.

prottog 4y ago
> so they had a debt jubilee everytime a king has died From this I can gather that Sumerian kings on average didn't live very long. ;-)
- whitemary 4y ago
  Or they were a good king and didn't let debt build up.
green_man_lives 4y ago
I would assume that most of the early Mesopotamian societies were the same. IOUs were the first form of currency, used for trade and bookkeeping. But after a while you'd see consolidation of wealth in the hands of a few, which would have been antithetical to the everything they knew at the time (group > individual).
ineedasername 4y ago
I imagine that a spasm of anxiety went through every lender’s gut whenever a king so much as sneezed.
ajmurmann 4y ago
So I would only get a mortgage when the king is young? I assume interest rates would go up with the age of the king?

Kalium 4y ago

You have to bear in mind that usury prohibitions quickly became entangled with power structures. Owing money to powerful people is a problem for noble or royal debtors. Owing money to people you can exile or murder as you see fit is convenient and provides multiple ways to resolve the issue.

Pet_Ant 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Jews_from_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Jews_from_Spain > They also had serious difficulties in recovering money lent to Christians because either the repayment term was after August 10, the deadline for their departure, or many of the debtors claimed "usury fraud," knowing that the Jews would not have time for the courts to rule in their favor.
ineedasername 4y ago
Yes, the powerful created their own “debt jubilee” at times: “Due to the precarious position of Jews, some nobles could ignore their debts. If the sponsoring noble died, his Jewish financier could face exile or execution.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_Jew https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_Jew

pjc50 4y ago

Prohibitions on usury date from a time before modern bankruptcy laws; there used to be debtor's prisons. If debt is truly inescapable (and in some places and times hereditary!), and can lead to the lender inflicting that level of consequence, usury looks a lot more scary.