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Being blunt, the mere fact that you can talk about that in public shows me you don’t truly understand the difference between US or European values and CCP value

by genmud 4y ago

Being blunt, the mere fact that you can talk about that in public shows me you don’t truly understand the difference between US or European values and CCP values. You can and should have policy discussions about how the US isn’t perfect and can do better, since in many ways this isn’t possible in many parts of the world. If you live in the west and can’t see that CCP interests are not aligned with the wests interests, you are a fool.

giraffe_lady 4y ago
No I clearly see that. I also see that the US's interests aren't aligned with the world's interests. They're only partially aligned with my own interests. A mismatch of interests doesn't make an entity evil. Their other actions may make them so and I think there's a compelling argument that they do. But so do our actions. And I'm not even arguing that we're "as bad" or anything like that. But we are certainly bad enough and if you can condemn a chinese tech product because of the actions of china you can certainly condemn an american tech product because of the actions of the US.
- genmud 4y ago
  I think something you should consider is the heirarchical nature and the tight integration of business, politics and social policy in the CCP vs the US. In the US, it’s more like a loose federation of aligned interests vs a top down, integrated system. If Facebook is doing bad things and being used to facilitate propaganda, it’s largely a failure of Facebook and the lack of appropriate legislation or oversight. Whereas TikTok has been accused of promoting pro-China viewpoints, and the reality is the way business is operated there, the lines are blurred between what TikTok the company does and what TikTok the CCP controlled entity does.
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    I'm too strict a consequentialist to care honestly. US tech companies further US imperial interests, as chinese tech companies further chinese imperial interests. The specific incentives and mechanisms by which they do it aren't that important for this case. The whole argument seems to center on the assumption that the US's imperial interests are better than china's, which I disagree with. They are possibly better for americans, in the same way that china's are possibly better for chinese people, and so I can understand a self-interested support of one over the other. But I don't think that's a consistent or moral position. Undermining chinese interests in favor of american ones is not actually better than undermining american interests in favor of chinese ones. Both are terrible and both must be opposed; to a significant extent they are expressions of the same evil.

by genmud 4y ago

giraffe_lady 4y ago

No I clearly see that. I also see that the US's interests aren't aligned with the world's interests. They're only partially aligned with my own interests. A mismatch of interests doesn't make an entity evil. Their other actions may make them so and I think there's a compelling argument that they do. But so do our actions. And I'm not even arguing that we're "as bad" or anything like that. But we are certainly bad enough and if you can condemn a chinese tech product because of the actions of china you can certainly condemn an american tech product because of the actions of the US.

genmud 4y ago
I think something you should consider is the heirarchical nature and the tight integration of business, politics and social policy in the CCP vs the US. In the US, it’s more like a loose federation of aligned interests vs a top down, integrated system. If Facebook is doing bad things and being used to facilitate propaganda, it’s largely a failure of Facebook and the lack of appropriate legislation or oversight. Whereas TikTok has been accused of promoting pro-China viewpoints, and the reality is the way business is operated there, the lines are blurred between what TikTok the company does and what TikTok the CCP controlled entity does.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  I'm too strict a consequentialist to care honestly. US tech companies further US imperial interests, as chinese tech companies further chinese imperial interests. The specific incentives and mechanisms by which they do it aren't that important for this case. The whole argument seems to center on the assumption that the US's imperial interests are better than china's, which I disagree with. They are possibly better for americans, in the same way that china's are possibly better for chinese people, and so I can understand a self-interested support of one over the other. But I don't think that's a consistent or moral position. Undermining chinese interests in favor of american ones is not actually better than undermining american interests in favor of chinese ones. Both are terrible and both must be opposed; to a significant extent they are expressions of the same evil.