4 ms·

Yeah, the incentives are different. My understanding is that the "honor" thing is a useful proxy for a time when ranged combat could not generally be decisive

Yeah, the incentives are different. My understanding is that the "honor" thing is a useful proxy for a time when ranged combat could not generally be decisive - as you would not expect ranged fighting to be able to force an enemy to surrender/withdraw/just all die. In these scenarios (and if you're not a society of mounted horse archers...), you -cannot- rely on ranged combat to enable your tribe/clan/fief/kingdom to actually decide outcomes. Therefore you have to incentize your soldiers and especially your leaders to actually be compelled to undertake, and be good at close combat, because if you're not good at that, you're not going to get get what you want (once again, unless you happen to be mounted horse archers). It's only really with the development of breach loaded firearms could you reasonably expect to be able to keep an attacking enemy at bay through firepower alone (and even then it's not guaranteed as Isandlwana shows).

bluGill 4y ago
Ranged weapons were slow to reload/fire and needed a lot of training to use. Slow to reload means that you have a reasonable change run up to someone with a bow and hit them with your club before they can shoot you. Needing a lot of training meant the enemy didn't have many, and if you were trying to wage war you can train a club force a lot faster than a bow force. In the early years of the gun it was expected you fire once and then rush into battle with a sword. A gun was still better than a bow though as it is a lot easier to aim a gun, even though the gun was not very accurate. As guns got faster to reload and more accurate they slowly took over war, but it wasn't until the mid 1800s that a gun was conclusively better than someone training in a bow or sword, and it wasn't until the 1900s that battle tactics adjusted to that reality.
- RugnirViking 4y ago
  Crossbows maybe, but bows can be fired really, really quickly. In the region of once every few seconds. The point about it requiring training however is very correct
  - bluGill 4y ago
    That is still a lot of time for someone charging with a club to get too close. Bows run out of arrows very fast as well, something i forgot to mention.
isk517 4y ago
I imagine the other issue with ranged weapons is that they require a consistent source ammunition. A single club can be used against many, a single arrow might kill one target. The 10x advantage drops disappears once you run out of things to fire, and considering how current world events are playing out this would be a even bigger factor in pre-industrial societies.

bluGill 4y ago

Ranged weapons were slow to reload/fire and needed a lot of training to use. Slow to reload means that you have a reasonable change run up to someone with a bow and hit them with your club before they can shoot you. Needing a lot of training meant the enemy didn't have many, and if you were trying to wage war you can train a club force a lot faster than a bow force. In the early years of the gun it was expected you fire once and then rush into battle with a sword. A gun was still better than a bow though as it is a lot easier to aim a gun, even though the gun was not very accurate. As guns got faster to reload and more accurate they slowly took over war, but it wasn't until the mid 1800s that a gun was conclusively better than someone training in a bow or sword, and it wasn't until the 1900s that battle tactics adjusted to that reality.

RugnirViking 4y ago
Crossbows maybe, but bows can be fired really, really quickly. In the region of once every few seconds. The point about it requiring training however is very correct
- bluGill 4y ago
  That is still a lot of time for someone charging with a club to get too close. Bows run out of arrows very fast as well, something i forgot to mention.

isk517 4y ago

I imagine the other issue with ranged weapons is that they require a consistent source ammunition. A single club can be used against many, a single arrow might kill one target. The 10x advantage drops disappears once you run out of things to fire, and considering how current world events are playing out this would be a even bigger factor in pre-industrial societies.