4 ms·

Older engineers tend to want more money and more seniority. Yet they have fewer skills and can't/don't want to work as hard as kids fresh out of college. This i

by temphn 15y ago

Older engineers tend to want more money and more seniority. Yet they have fewer skills and can't/don't want to work as hard as kids fresh out of college. This is a change from historical times, in which the technology stack didn't change multiple times in a generation and wisdom/experience counted for more. No doubt there are many who'll argue with these facts. The last time this came up, a guy piped up saying that he'd hire a smart old programmer any day over a dumb young'un who knew node or Rails. That guy was advertising for a Rails dev in his profile. The best way to show this isn't true is for someone to build a startup or company powered by older engineers. Note that discriminating against Jewish, Persian, Chinese, Korean, or Indian programmers would obviously lose you money, as those groups constitute a substantial fraction of the tech workforce. It is not so obvious that the market is economically irrational about the abilities of other groups. (Also: note how the article and the engineers all want to work at the best companies, and turn their noses up at the non-Facebooks and non-Googles they might need to "settle" for. What if employees couldn't freely discriminate regarding where they want to work? Does anyone stop to think that the companies they want to join so badly might know a thing or two about what kinds of people make good programmers?)

amcintyre 15y ago
Older engineers tend to want more money and more seniority. Yet they have fewer skills and can't/don't want to work as hard as kids fresh out of college. Nice generalization. Personally, over the last few years I've run into lots of "kids fresh out of college" that can't/won't work to learn skills they need to do their job. Game devs that don't know the math behind changing coordinate systems, and consequently write fragile rendering/UI code. Testers that won't write unit tests, and devs that won't write and/or run them to avoid creating new bugs. Early-career C++ coders that will argue to you that the OS won't let two threads touch a static variable at the same time. But I don't generalize that into assuming every young person is a lazy moron. I've also met some bright young people that will work hard to learn new theory/skills/languages/frameworks, and care about doing a good job. So I prefer to evaluate each person on their own merits, and that seems to work out a lot better. YMMV. If a company isn't interested in hiring me because they're afraid I have enough experience to know better than to work 80-hour weeks and take my work home for 50-75% of industry pay while making them rich, that's ok with me. I've got that T-shirt, and I don't want another one. This is a change from historical times, in which the technology stack didn't change multiple times in a generation and wisdom/experience counted for more. If simply learning the top of the latest tech stack every few years is making you a lot of money right now, you'd better start saving. I'm thinking something like this: http://www.despair.com/motivation.html http://www.despair.com/motivation.html The best way to show this isn't true is for someone to build a startup or company powered by older engineers. Most people that are so inclined would rather start the company and power it with younger, more fungible people that don't know their own value. ;) Seriously, though, aren't most startup founders 40+ already?
- ootachi 15y ago
  Nope. In fact, many VCs (Khosla, etc) are quite open about the fact that they are unlikely to fund you if you are over 25.
  - bootload 15y ago
    "... many VCs (Khosla, etc) are quite open about the fact that they are unlikely to fund you if you are over 25. ..." The balance of power might make it easier to deal with 25 year olds who may grasp at any opportunity, compared to 25+ who bargains harder?
  - greenyoda 15y ago
    Lots of businesses (most small businesses, perhaps?) start up without the help of VCs.
  - helmut_hed 15y ago
    I don't know what Vinod Khosla has recently said regarding his preferences for founder age, but his firm's recent track record of funding is public knowledge. Here's the last three fundings listed on Kleiner Perkins' website: 1) 2012-01-24 Elance, CEO Fabio Rosati, age not listed but he "has 20 years of experience in the services and technology sectors", so likely late 30's at the youngest. 2) 2012-01-17 AppDynamics, CEO Jyoti Bansal, age not listed but BS from IIT in 1999 so probably around 30 3) 2012-01-10 Klout, CEO Joe Fernandez, graduated with double major in CS and finance 2000 so also about 30 I'd be interested to know where the anecdote about not funding people over 25 came from.
    - ootachi 15y ago
      Khosla didn't say 25, my mistake -- he said 35: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-innovations/the-case-for-old-entrepreneurs/2011/12/02/gIQAulJ3KO_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-innovations/the-ca... The 25 quote comes from an unnamed VC quoted by Michael Arrington in this story: http://techcrunch.com/2011/04/30/internet-entrepreneurs-are-like-professional-athletes-they-peak-around-25/ http://techcrunch.com/2011/04/30/internet-entrepreneurs-are-...

by temphn 15y ago

amcintyre 15y ago

Older engineers tend to want more money and more seniority. Yet they have fewer skills and can't/don't want to work as hard as kids fresh out of college. Nice generalization. Personally, over the last few years I've run into lots of "kids fresh out of college" that can't/won't work to learn skills they need to do their job. Game devs that don't know the math behind changing coordinate systems, and consequently write fragile rendering/UI code. Testers that won't write unit tests, and devs that won't write and/or run them to avoid creating new bugs. Early-career C++ coders that will argue to you that the OS won't let two threads touch a static variable at the same time. But I don't generalize that into assuming every young person is a lazy moron. I've also met some bright young people that will work hard to learn new theory/skills/languages/frameworks, and care about doing a good job. So I prefer to evaluate each person on their own merits, and that seems to work out a lot better. YMMV. If a company isn't interested in hiring me because they're afraid I have enough experience to know better than to work 80-hour weeks and take my work home for 50-75% of industry pay while making them rich, that's ok with me. I've got that T-shirt, and I don't want another one. This is a change from historical times, in which the technology stack didn't change multiple times in a generation and wisdom/experience counted for more. If simply learning the top of the latest tech stack every few years is making you a lot of money right now, you'd better start saving. I'm thinking something like this: http://www.despair.com/motivation.html http://www.despair.com/motivation.html The best way to show this isn't true is for someone to build a startup or company powered by older engineers. Most people that are so inclined would rather start the company and power it with younger, more fungible people that don't know their own value. ;) Seriously, though, aren't most startup founders 40+ already?

ootachi 15y ago
Nope. In fact, many VCs (Khosla, etc) are quite open about the fact that they are unlikely to fund you if you are over 25.
- bootload 15y ago
  "... many VCs (Khosla, etc) are quite open about the fact that they are unlikely to fund you if you are over 25. ..." The balance of power might make it easier to deal with 25 year olds who may grasp at any opportunity, compared to 25+ who bargains harder?
- greenyoda 15y ago
  Lots of businesses (most small businesses, perhaps?) start up without the help of VCs.
- helmut_hed 15y ago
  I don't know what Vinod Khosla has recently said regarding his preferences for founder age, but his firm's recent track record of funding is public knowledge. Here's the last three fundings listed on Kleiner Perkins' website: 1) 2012-01-24 Elance, CEO Fabio Rosati, age not listed but he "has 20 years of experience in the services and technology sectors", so likely late 30's at the youngest. 2) 2012-01-17 AppDynamics, CEO Jyoti Bansal, age not listed but BS from IIT in 1999 so probably around 30 3) 2012-01-10 Klout, CEO Joe Fernandez, graduated with double major in CS and finance 2000 so also about 30 I'd be interested to know where the anecdote about not funding people over 25 came from.
  - ootachi 15y ago
    Khosla didn't say 25, my mistake -- he said 35: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-innovations/the-case-for-old-entrepreneurs/2011/12/02/gIQAulJ3KO_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-innovations/the-ca... The 25 quote comes from an unnamed VC quoted by Michael Arrington in this story: http://techcrunch.com/2011/04/30/internet-entrepreneurs-are-like-professional-athletes-they-peak-around-25/ http://techcrunch.com/2011/04/30/internet-entrepreneurs-are-...