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This Cautionary Tales podcast episode talks about him [0]. Both were invented in the service of DuPont. CFC at least helped making refrigeration safer and hel

This Cautionary Tales podcast episode talks about him [0]. Both were invented in the service of DuPont. CFC at least helped making refrigeration safer and helped getting it to the masses. Leaded gasoline on the other hand was always known as a bad idea. In both cases though, DuPont fought back hard to prevent bans of these solutions. They rather kill the planet than their profits. Suitably enough he killed himself with another one of his inventions that used pulleys to overcome mobility issues due to his Polio infection and helped him get out of bed. I guess health and safety was really not his thing. [0] https://timharford.com/2022/11/cautionary-tales-the-inventor-who-almost-ended-the-world/ https://timharford.com/2022/11/cautionary-tales-the-inventor...

swixmix 4y ago
Polio was absolutely terrible for those who had it. I wouldn’t blame him for having it. Or for ending it. However, for other reasons, I agree with you. http://acshist.scs.illinois.edu/bulletin_open_access/v31-2/v31-2%20p66-74.pdf http://acshist.scs.illinois.edu/bulletin_open_access/v31-2/v...
- prennert 4y ago
  I did not mean to blame him for having polio. I just meant to say that his solution to his mobility problems came with significant tech debt that came to hang him later.
  - causi 4y ago
    It was not a tech debt issue. He used it to commit suicide.
    - circuit10 4y ago
      I thought it was an accident?
      - causi 4y ago
        Publicly it was an accident. Privately it was a suicide.
        JohnFen 4y ago
        Really? So the guy had some sort of conscience after all?
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  Interestingly most cases are asymptomatic or extremely low acute consequence and the problems only emerge years later. There is nothing to be learned from this and we should not give it any more thought.
twarge 4y ago
Propane is a shockingly better refrigerant. Sure, it's flammable, but is it really unsafe? It's widely used in commercial units.
- jabl 4y ago
  Propane is a very good refrigerant for many common uses like AC, heat pumps, or refrigerators, yes. But yes, AFAIU initially CFC's were hailed as a significant safety advancement and quickly replaced older refrigerants that were poisonous (ammonia) or flammable (hydrocarbons). But subsequently we've become better at making refrigerant machinery that needs less refrigerant and is less prone to leakage, and the natural refrigerants have made a comeback as subsequent generations of the flourocarbon family refrigerants have been banned (CFC bans, F-gas regulations etc.) and become more and more expensive.
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > It's widely used in commercial units. That right here is the point. With commercial units, you can be relatively sure only trained professionals will touch it, it will be somewhat decently maintained, and installation will be done with decent quality. With anything consumer-retail? As a manufacturer, you'll have to include absolutely ridiculously dumb people into your risk estimation, and you don't want to risk headlines like "Exploding brand XYZ AC unit kills family in house fire" because the father who had installed it caused a leak in the propane circuit - people won't care about that distinction, they'll see your brand as tarnished and unsafe.
- Arrath 4y ago
  Don't forget decades of advancements in manufacturing procedures, engineering, tighter tolerances, improved materials science, and so on that have happened to help ensure the propane remains in the coolant circuit.
rob74 4y ago
Speaking of DuPont, they also were among the first to introduce PFAs with Teflon - although in this case I don't think anybody suspected what implications that may have at the time...
- prennert 4y ago
  On a high level, this story looks similar to CFC: when environmental issues arise, deny and defend profits. [0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bilott#Initial_actions_against_DuPont https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bilott#Initial_actions_...
dTal 4y ago
I'm going to reiterate a point that needs to be repeated very loudly, as often as possible: Corporations are malignant paperclip maximizers. We are already in an "AI apocalypse". How many people did leaded fuel kill? Lead exposure makes people stupid and violent - how many wars did it indirectly contribute to, how far back has society been held? That's one corporation. One!! "Corporations bad" is a sort of tired left wing trope at this point but I think that's because the scale of the problem is difficult to wrap one's head around - it's hard to imagine an alternate world. But we didn't choose to inhabit a world run by corporations, it just happened through a process of blind natural selection, and it will kill us all unless we do something about it now. Our current governments are clearly inadequate - we need to be consciously, deliberately, constructing alternate ways of organizing ourselves, as rapidly as possible, to combat the threat of this new lifeform. And make no mistake, it is combat - they will fight back! They will fight back on a level so subtle and insidious that you will be convinced that there is no fight, or that you are powerless, or that the anti-corporate movement is on the wrong side. What can you do about it? You're an HN reader, you can probably make websites. Build something designed to facilitate collective action. Bring out the best in people. Make it so that when we all know that something is bad, no fucking corporation can pay off the government to be allowed to do it anyway.
- pfdietz 4y ago
  W. Dow Reider's "Doc Future" e-novels went in this direction, particularly the last not yet finished one. Recommended! https://docfuture.tumblr.com/post/62787551366/stories https://docfuture.tumblr.com/post/62787551366/stories
- Weneedlead 4y ago
  Nobility used to have the highest lead levels, while violent tribes used to have the lowest. How do you explain that?
  - kevviiinn 4y ago
    You explain that by understanding that nobility had the resources and influence to get utensils and other kitchenware that were ceramics decorated with lead containing glaze and metals that contained lead. You have causality entirely backwards, eating lead does not somehow turn someone into nobility. That's an absurd conclusion

swixmix 4y ago

Polio was absolutely terrible for those who had it. I wouldn’t blame him for having it. Or for ending it. However, for other reasons, I agree with you. http://acshist.scs.illinois.edu/bulletin_open_access/v31-2/v31-2%20p66-74.pdf http://acshist.scs.illinois.edu/bulletin_open_access/v31-2/v...

prennert 4y ago
I did not mean to blame him for having polio. I just meant to say that his solution to his mobility problems came with significant tech debt that came to hang him later.
- causi 4y ago
  It was not a tech debt issue. He used it to commit suicide.
  - circuit10 4y ago
    I thought it was an accident?
    - causi 4y ago
      Publicly it was an accident. Privately it was a suicide.
      - JohnFen 4y ago
        Really? So the guy had some sort of conscience after all?
giraffe_lady 4y ago
Interestingly most cases are asymptomatic or extremely low acute consequence and the problems only emerge years later. There is nothing to be learned from this and we should not give it any more thought.

twarge 4y ago

Propane is a shockingly better refrigerant. Sure, it's flammable, but is it really unsafe? It's widely used in commercial units.

jabl 4y ago
Propane is a very good refrigerant for many common uses like AC, heat pumps, or refrigerators, yes. But yes, AFAIU initially CFC's were hailed as a significant safety advancement and quickly replaced older refrigerants that were poisonous (ammonia) or flammable (hydrocarbons). But subsequently we've become better at making refrigerant machinery that needs less refrigerant and is less prone to leakage, and the natural refrigerants have made a comeback as subsequent generations of the flourocarbon family refrigerants have been banned (CFC bans, F-gas regulations etc.) and become more and more expensive.
mschuster91 4y ago
> It's widely used in commercial units. That right here is the point. With commercial units, you can be relatively sure only trained professionals will touch it, it will be somewhat decently maintained, and installation will be done with decent quality. With anything consumer-retail? As a manufacturer, you'll have to include absolutely ridiculously dumb people into your risk estimation, and you don't want to risk headlines like "Exploding brand XYZ AC unit kills family in house fire" because the father who had installed it caused a leak in the propane circuit - people won't care about that distinction, they'll see your brand as tarnished and unsafe.
Arrath 4y ago
Don't forget decades of advancements in manufacturing procedures, engineering, tighter tolerances, improved materials science, and so on that have happened to help ensure the propane remains in the coolant circuit.

rob74 4y ago

Speaking of DuPont, they also were among the first to introduce PFAs with Teflon - although in this case I don't think anybody suspected what implications that may have at the time...

prennert 4y ago
On a high level, this story looks similar to CFC: when environmental issues arise, deny and defend profits. [0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bilott#Initial_actions_against_DuPont https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bilott#Initial_actions_...

dTal 4y ago

I'm going to reiterate a point that needs to be repeated very loudly, as often as possible: Corporations are malignant paperclip maximizers. We are already in an "AI apocalypse". How many people did leaded fuel kill? Lead exposure makes people stupid and violent - how many wars did it indirectly contribute to, how far back has society been held? That's one corporation. One!! "Corporations bad" is a sort of tired left wing trope at this point but I think that's because the scale of the problem is difficult to wrap one's head around - it's hard to imagine an alternate world. But we didn't choose to inhabit a world run by corporations, it just happened through a process of blind natural selection, and it will kill us all unless we do something about it now. Our current governments are clearly inadequate - we need to be consciously, deliberately, constructing alternate ways of organizing ourselves, as rapidly as possible, to combat the threat of this new lifeform. And make no mistake, it is combat - they will fight back! They will fight back on a level so subtle and insidious that you will be convinced that there is no fight, or that you are powerless, or that the anti-corporate movement is on the wrong side. What can you do about it? You're an HN reader, you can probably make websites. Build something designed to facilitate collective action. Bring out the best in people. Make it so that when we all know that something is bad, no fucking corporation can pay off the government to be allowed to do it anyway.

pfdietz 4y ago
W. Dow Reider's "Doc Future" e-novels went in this direction, particularly the last not yet finished one. Recommended! https://docfuture.tumblr.com/post/62787551366/stories https://docfuture.tumblr.com/post/62787551366/stories
Weneedlead 4y ago
Nobility used to have the highest lead levels, while violent tribes used to have the lowest. How do you explain that?
- kevviiinn 4y ago
  You explain that by understanding that nobility had the resources and influence to get utensils and other kitchenware that were ceramics decorated with lead containing glaze and metals that contained lead. You have causality entirely backwards, eating lead does not somehow turn someone into nobility. That's an absurd conclusion