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As a sibling commenter mentioned, there’s a minimalist functional web server available out of the box, that can later have other more complex components added o

As a sibling commenter mentioned, there’s a minimalist functional web server available out of the box, that can later have other more complex components added on: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/aspnet/core/tutorials/min-web-api?view=aspnetcore-7.0&tabs=visual-studio https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/aspnet/core/tutorials/min-... It’s .NET 101 stuff.

drdaeman 4y ago
I'm sorry, I think I really must be missing something out and/or explained myself poorly, but I don't see how this is comparable... Doesn't `WebApplication.CreateBuilder(args).Build()` creates a whole web application type thing? In my understanding it's something comparable to `gin.Default()` or `flask.Flask(__name__)`, rather than lower level basic `http.Server{Addr: addr}` or `http.server.HTTPServer(address)` (which still doesn't require any manual HTTP protocol parsing). And this stuff is ASP.NET Core, not a bare .NET [Core], isn't it? What I'm talking about is something comparable to just Kestrel, except that I failed to find any documentation on using it "raw" without the whole ASP.NET thing (maybe I misunderstood what it is and it's tightly coupled with the whole framework?).
- Merad 4y ago
  WebApplicationBuilder is the mechanism for configuring the kestrel web server. Kestrel is the foundation of Asp.Net Core, there's no separating the two. But Kestrel is a totally modular system. If you configure your request pipeline with a single custom middleware then that is literally the only thing the server is running. If you use only minimal APIs then the middleware that handles their routing is the only thing running. Asp.Net Core has dozens of bells and whistles but none of them affect your app if they aren't part of your request pipeline.
- WorldMaker 4y ago
  WebApplicationBuilder itself is mostly the base .NET Generic Host [1] (which is "bare" .NET and is used as a common host for dependency injection plus common utilities such as configuration and logging) plus activating the Kestrel hooks for HTTP middleware. Kestrel even at its most "raw" is always slightly higher-level and closer to Flask or Express (JS) as a middleware-focused HTTP execution engine. (This partly reflects the classic HTTP.SYS role in IIS/Windows as well, because Window's HTTP.SYS is surprisingly high level for a "raw" kernel component for hosting web servers. From my understanding, most of "Kestrel" under-the-hood is just a cross-platform semi-recreation of the HTTP.SYS abstraction machine on top of things like but maybe not exactly libuv/ioring. So yes, everything is "naturally" higher level in .NET than Python's lowest level just because it assumes a higher-level "OS server" base.) Also, yes, the boundary between "Kestrel" and ASP.NET is really hard to define at this point. Almost all of ASP.NET is just "Express-style" (though much of these middleware patterns in ASP.NET I believe predate Express) middleware that is cumulatively stacked on top of each other as you add more high-level ASP.NET features, and at this point all of them are just about optional depending on what you are looking to do. Even many alternatives to ASP.NET at this point are built on top of the core basics like WebApplicationBuilder, they just diverge at which sets of middleware stack on top of that. As others point out the recently expanded "Minimal APIs" experience is most tuned for "Flask-like" out-of-the-box behavior: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/aspnet/core/fundamentals/minimal-apis/overview?view=aspnetcore-7.0 https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/aspnet/core/fundamentals/m... That's as low level as it gets in .NET, but not so much because of "strong coupling" but because "everything is middleware" in .NET. [1] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/extensions/generic-host https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/extensions/gen...
  - drdaeman 4y ago
    Thank you very much for your comment! I don't have any issues with the IHost and builder patterns. I actually like those - although I've only used the very basics, so I don't really know about the intricacies and possible drawbacks. Thanks for clearing my misunderstanding about the coupling. I really thought Kestrel was something different, have not expected it to be this high level. It being a replacement of HTTP.sys totally makes sense, of course. I've found and read https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/aspnet/core/fundamentals/minimal-apis/middleware https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/aspnet/core/fundamentals/m... and it started to make more sense now.
    - WorldMaker 4y ago
      There's an ancient historic low-level API, that I just remembered, which you can explore that still remains around for backwards compatibility but isn't recommended for new code: Kestrel was (via a long scenic route) forked from System.Net.HttpListener [1] which is the closest to a strict bare-bones HTTP.SYS wrapper that has existed in .NET. There's a long issues thread on HttpListener should be more strongly marked deprecated [2] to avoid people accidentally using it despite today's recommendations to use Kestrel/the "Most Core" parts of ASP.NET. One fun part of the thread is an example repo of the absolute most "bare-bones" and "raw" Kestrel bootup possible [3], including a "TODO: implement TLS handshake here" bit. [1] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/api/system.net.httplistener?view=net-7.0 https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/api/system.net.http... [2] https://github.com/dotnet/platform-compat/issues/88 https://github.com/dotnet/platform-compat/issues/88 [3] https://github.com/davidfowl/BasicKestrel/tree/master/BasicKestrel https://github.com/davidfowl/BasicKestrel/tree/master/BasicK...
- SgtBastard 4y ago
  >In my understanding it's something comparable to `gin.Default()` or `flask.Flask(__name__)`, rather than lower level basic `http.Server{Addr: addr}` or `http.server.HTTPServer(address)` (which still doesn't require any manual HTTP protocol parsing). Its not. Keep reading.

drdaeman 4y ago

I'm sorry, I think I really must be missing something out and/or explained myself poorly, but I don't see how this is comparable... Doesn't `WebApplication.CreateBuilder(args).Build()` creates a whole web application type thing? In my understanding it's something comparable to `gin.Default()` or `flask.Flask(__name__)`, rather than lower level basic `http.Server{Addr: addr}` or `http.server.HTTPServer(address)` (which still doesn't require any manual HTTP protocol parsing). And this stuff is ASP.NET Core, not a bare .NET [Core], isn't it? What I'm talking about is something comparable to just Kestrel, except that I failed to find any documentation on using it "raw" without the whole ASP.NET thing (maybe I misunderstood what it is and it's tightly coupled with the whole framework?).

Merad 4y ago
WebApplicationBuilder is the mechanism for configuring the kestrel web server. Kestrel is the foundation of Asp.Net Core, there's no separating the two. But Kestrel is a totally modular system. If you configure your request pipeline with a single custom middleware then that is literally the only thing the server is running. If you use only minimal APIs then the middleware that handles their routing is the only thing running. Asp.Net Core has dozens of bells and whistles but none of them affect your app if they aren't part of your request pipeline.
WorldMaker 4y ago
WebApplicationBuilder itself is mostly the base .NET Generic Host [1] (which is "bare" .NET and is used as a common host for dependency injection plus common utilities such as configuration and logging) plus activating the Kestrel hooks for HTTP middleware. Kestrel even at its most "raw" is always slightly higher-level and closer to Flask or Express (JS) as a middleware-focused HTTP execution engine. (This partly reflects the classic HTTP.SYS role in IIS/Windows as well, because Window's HTTP.SYS is surprisingly high level for a "raw" kernel component for hosting web servers. From my understanding, most of "Kestrel" under-the-hood is just a cross-platform semi-recreation of the HTTP.SYS abstraction machine on top of things like but maybe not exactly libuv/ioring. So yes, everything is "naturally" higher level in .NET than Python's lowest level just because it assumes a higher-level "OS server" base.) Also, yes, the boundary between "Kestrel" and ASP.NET is really hard to define at this point. Almost all of ASP.NET is just "Express-style" (though much of these middleware patterns in ASP.NET I believe predate Express) middleware that is cumulatively stacked on top of each other as you add more high-level ASP.NET features, and at this point all of them are just about optional depending on what you are looking to do. Even many alternatives to ASP.NET at this point are built on top of the core basics like WebApplicationBuilder, they just diverge at which sets of middleware stack on top of that. As others point out the recently expanded "Minimal APIs" experience is most tuned for "Flask-like" out-of-the-box behavior: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/aspnet/core/fundamentals/minimal-apis/overview?view=aspnetcore-7.0 https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/aspnet/core/fundamentals/m... That's as low level as it gets in .NET, but not so much because of "strong coupling" but because "everything is middleware" in .NET. [1] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/extensions/generic-host https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/extensions/gen...
- drdaeman 4y ago
  Thank you very much for your comment! I don't have any issues with the IHost and builder patterns. I actually like those - although I've only used the very basics, so I don't really know about the intricacies and possible drawbacks. Thanks for clearing my misunderstanding about the coupling. I really thought Kestrel was something different, have not expected it to be this high level. It being a replacement of HTTP.sys totally makes sense, of course. I've found and read https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/aspnet/core/fundamentals/minimal-apis/middleware https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/aspnet/core/fundamentals/m... and it started to make more sense now.
  - WorldMaker 4y ago
    There's an ancient historic low-level API, that I just remembered, which you can explore that still remains around for backwards compatibility but isn't recommended for new code: Kestrel was (via a long scenic route) forked from System.Net.HttpListener [1] which is the closest to a strict bare-bones HTTP.SYS wrapper that has existed in .NET. There's a long issues thread on HttpListener should be more strongly marked deprecated [2] to avoid people accidentally using it despite today's recommendations to use Kestrel/the "Most Core" parts of ASP.NET. One fun part of the thread is an example repo of the absolute most "bare-bones" and "raw" Kestrel bootup possible [3], including a "TODO: implement TLS handshake here" bit. [1] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/api/system.net.httplistener?view=net-7.0 https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/api/system.net.http... [2] https://github.com/dotnet/platform-compat/issues/88 https://github.com/dotnet/platform-compat/issues/88 [3] https://github.com/davidfowl/BasicKestrel/tree/master/BasicKestrel https://github.com/davidfowl/BasicKestrel/tree/master/BasicK...
SgtBastard 4y ago
>In my understanding it's something comparable to `gin.Default()` or `flask.Flask(__name__)`, rather than lower level basic `http.Server{Addr: addr}` or `http.server.HTTPServer(address)` (which still doesn't require any manual HTTP protocol parsing). Its not. Keep reading.