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The major question I have about solar and wind is the issue of supply chain governance risks of rare earth elements, cobalt, and lithium. I haven't really heard

by gman83 4y ago

The major question I have about solar and wind is the issue of supply chain governance risks of rare earth elements, cobalt, and lithium. I haven't really heard a good answer yet.

flangola7 4y ago
Why do wind generators need those but not other types of generators?
- defrost 4y ago
  It's a fair question, and the answer is linked to sheer numbers. Currently it takes a forrest of wind generators, each on a tower, to replace a single (albeit much larger) generator continously and precisely spun as a steam turbine from (say) coal fired heat sources. Solar takes acres of rare eath films, and solar+wind needs some form of load smoothing via energy storage so there's additional demand if massive battery banks are used (pumped hydro, heat in sodium, other alternatives exist but not always applicable).
  - flangola7 4y ago
    I thought solar farms were switching to mirrors concentrating heat on a superheated salt solution.
    - defrost 4y ago
      That's a goal of some that shows promise but so far to date concentrated solar power schemes (of various kinds) have only reach < 10 GW (in total, globally) last I checked [1]. Photovoltaics, by comparison [2]: Solar PV generation increased by a record 179 TWh (up 22%) in 2021 to exceed 1 000 TWh. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power [2] https://www.iea.org/reports/solar-pv https://www.iea.org/reports/solar-pv All up a hell of a difference (so far) in generation capacity. In an ideal future we'll see a lot more large CSP plants making better per GW usage of rare earths.
- philipkglass 4y ago
  They don't. Most wind turbines use electrically excited induction generators. Wind generators containing permanent magnets account for a minority of the market, used mostly for offshore wind (due to reduced maintenance requirements) and in China (due to discounted rare earth element pricing for domestic users). https://www.evwind.es/2017/05/31/rare-earths-and-wind-turbines-a-problem-that-doesnt-exist/60018 https://www.evwind.es/2017/05/31/rare-earths-and-wind-turbin...

by gman83 4y ago

The major question I have about solar and wind is the issue of supply chain governance risks of rare earth elements, cobalt, and lithium. I haven't really heard a good answer yet.

flangola7 4y ago

Why do wind generators need those but not other types of generators?

defrost 4y ago
It's a fair question, and the answer is linked to sheer numbers. Currently it takes a forrest of wind generators, each on a tower, to replace a single (albeit much larger) generator continously and precisely spun as a steam turbine from (say) coal fired heat sources. Solar takes acres of rare eath films, and solar+wind needs some form of load smoothing via energy storage so there's additional demand if massive battery banks are used (pumped hydro, heat in sodium, other alternatives exist but not always applicable).
- flangola7 4y ago
  I thought solar farms were switching to mirrors concentrating heat on a superheated salt solution.
  - defrost 4y ago
    That's a goal of some that shows promise but so far to date concentrated solar power schemes (of various kinds) have only reach < 10 GW (in total, globally) last I checked [1]. Photovoltaics, by comparison [2]: Solar PV generation increased by a record 179 TWh (up 22%) in 2021 to exceed 1 000 TWh. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power [2] https://www.iea.org/reports/solar-pv https://www.iea.org/reports/solar-pv All up a hell of a difference (so far) in generation capacity. In an ideal future we'll see a lot more large CSP plants making better per GW usage of rare earths.
philipkglass 4y ago
They don't. Most wind turbines use electrically excited induction generators. Wind generators containing permanent magnets account for a minority of the market, used mostly for offshore wind (due to reduced maintenance requirements) and in China (due to discounted rare earth element pricing for domestic users). https://www.evwind.es/2017/05/31/rare-earths-and-wind-turbines-a-problem-that-doesnt-exist/60018 https://www.evwind.es/2017/05/31/rare-earths-and-wind-turbin...