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To boil it down as much as possible, I’m not persuaded Trump (or anyone else) conspired with Russia to win the presidency. The prosecution of Gates and Manafor

To boil it down as much as possible, I’m not persuaded Trump (or anyone else) conspired with Russia to win the presidency. The prosecution of Gates and Manafort would not have proceeded had the election swung the other way. In totality it seems to me the Special Council investigation was a political hatchet job more than anything resembling a pursuit of justice. For whatever it’s worth, I do not support Trump but feel compelled to note perceived injustices when observed.

mikeyouse 4y ago
How in the world is it an injustice when criminals are found guilty in the court of law? Wouldn't the real injustice have come if you were right and Manafort and Gates didn't face consequences for their wanton criminality due solely to their friend winning power? There is absolutely no dispute that both embezzled millions of dollars from a Russian billionaire and then committed massive amounts of tax fraud on top of it. Describing it as an "injustice" is just the silliest thing. This description of "poor Donald Trump" is insane. I'd really, really recommend you actually read the Mueller report. The investigation you are describing is 100% divorced from what they actually found. It's likely that if they do that deep of an investigation into any campaigns, they'd fine dirt -- but that doesn't excuse the dirt!
- thakoppno 4y ago
  > How in the world is it an injustice when criminals are found guilty in the court of law? If it’s politically motivated, then it is unjust. I take Gates’ and Manafort’s guilty pleas seriously. They both admit to crimes. However, none of these crimes come close to conspiring with Russia to rig an election. That didn’t happen from a legal perspective. As far as Mueller and his report, it struck me as antithetical to the US system of justice when he inverted the standard of presumed innocence when he said, “if we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so.” Additionally Mueller did not seem to know about Fusion GPS when he testified before Congress. The special council never interviewed Kilimnick. One factual note, it seems like one of Manafort’s convictions is from his dealings with Yanukovych, who is Ukrainian, not Russian, although he is currently living in exile in Russia. No one is saying poor Trump. I’m just saying the special council did not prove a conspiracy to win the White House.
  - mikeyouse 4y ago
    > One factual note, it seems like one of Manafort’s convictions is from his dealings with Yanukovych, who is Ukrainian, not Russian, although he is currently living in exile in Russia. He also stole millions of dollars from the Ukrainian people via a scheme working with Yanukovych that only came to light via the black ledger -- but Manafort had $20 million in personal loans from Deripaska and something like $65M in total debt with him (it's a common way to evade taxes on crimes -- you take a loan and then never repay it so it never shows as income); https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/manafort-had-60m-relationship-russian-oligarch-n810541 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/manafort-had-60m-relation... Manafort was astonishingly corrupt.

mikeyouse 4y ago

How in the world is it an injustice when criminals are found guilty in the court of law? Wouldn't the real injustice have come if you were right and Manafort and Gates didn't face consequences for their wanton criminality due solely to their friend winning power? There is absolutely no dispute that both embezzled millions of dollars from a Russian billionaire and then committed massive amounts of tax fraud on top of it. Describing it as an "injustice" is just the silliest thing. This description of "poor Donald Trump" is insane. I'd really, really recommend you actually read the Mueller report. The investigation you are describing is 100% divorced from what they actually found. It's likely that if they do that deep of an investigation into any campaigns, they'd fine dirt -- but that doesn't excuse the dirt!

thakoppno 4y ago
> How in the world is it an injustice when criminals are found guilty in the court of law? If it’s politically motivated, then it is unjust. I take Gates’ and Manafort’s guilty pleas seriously. They both admit to crimes. However, none of these crimes come close to conspiring with Russia to rig an election. That didn’t happen from a legal perspective. As far as Mueller and his report, it struck me as antithetical to the US system of justice when he inverted the standard of presumed innocence when he said, “if we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so.” Additionally Mueller did not seem to know about Fusion GPS when he testified before Congress. The special council never interviewed Kilimnick. One factual note, it seems like one of Manafort’s convictions is from his dealings with Yanukovych, who is Ukrainian, not Russian, although he is currently living in exile in Russia. No one is saying poor Trump. I’m just saying the special council did not prove a conspiracy to win the White House.
- mikeyouse 4y ago
  > One factual note, it seems like one of Manafort’s convictions is from his dealings with Yanukovych, who is Ukrainian, not Russian, although he is currently living in exile in Russia. He also stole millions of dollars from the Ukrainian people via a scheme working with Yanukovych that only came to light via the black ledger -- but Manafort had $20 million in personal loans from Deripaska and something like $65M in total debt with him (it's a common way to evade taxes on crimes -- you take a loan and then never repay it so it never shows as income); https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/manafort-had-60m-relationship-russian-oligarch-n810541 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/manafort-had-60m-relation... Manafort was astonishingly corrupt.