4 ms·

The thing is, there's another boom currently going on. The mirrorless boom, and this site is the gold standard for that one as well. Now there is no home, and i

by asdff 4y ago

The thing is, there's another boom currently going on. The mirrorless boom, and this site is the gold standard for that one as well. Now there is no home, and its much harder to gleam the differences that are actually meaningful between these many mirrorless cameras (and new dslrs that do get made).

bradlys 4y ago
a "boom" is an overstatement. The camera industry overall is dying and struggling. We're down to something like 10% of camera sales from 2010. There is no boom. There is a transition from DSLR to mirrorless for the few existing dedicated camera photographers out there.
- cozzyd 4y ago
  10% camera sales or 10% ILC sales? The point and click market is obviously irrelevant for a mirrorless boom.
  - klodolph 4y ago
    Point and shoot peaked in 2010, I think. Camera sales have dropped by something like 90% since 2010, if you exclude smartphones. Any “boom” is just consumers shuffling around within a collapsing market.
- noncoml 4y ago
  Definitely not a boom, but there is still a sizable niche community that I would thought to be big enough to support a good website. For example there is no boom of home audio systems anymore, but there are enough audiophiles to support a number of sites and magazines
- johnvanommen 4y ago
  I have a $600 DSLR that I bought at Costco on a whim, fifteen years ago. Once in a blue moon I look at my old photos and realize they just look night and day better than anything I've taken in the last decade. Camera phone lenses do alright when it's sunny outside, but DSLRs kill it when it comes to medium and low light.
  - FollowingTheDao 4y ago
    The only people who think Smartphone Cameras take better pictures than SLRs are not photographers. It is not just low light, it is depth of field, exposure control, the minimization or absence of computed exposures. I have an iPhone 13 Pro Max and only shot in RAW mode. That is the best I can do. Saving money fro a mirrorless camera so i can start shooting again.
    - tonyarkles 4y ago
      > The only people who think Smartphone Cameras take better pictures than SLRs are not photographers. Amateur photographer here, currently have a Canon 80D and a 20-year collection of medium-quality lenses. You're completely right. The photos that this thing takes are miles ahead of my iPhone 12 Pro; you just can't beat a sensor with big pixels and an aperture that's 10-100x (? I don't know the actual ratio) larger than a smartphone lens. But the one nuance is the old saying "the best camera in the world is the one you've got with you"; I have some beautiful shots from this camera, and the 20D before it, and the Rebel XT before it, but some of my absolute favourites were shot on a smartphone because it was in my pocket at the right time and the DSLR was at home in the bag.
    - astrange 4y ago
      SLRs don't take "better" photos, they take more detailed photos. The best photo is the one you actually took because you had the camera on you and didn't miss the shot. And if you want the most detailed photo, SLRs are not the highest quality cameras either when you could rent a Fujifilm GFX 100.
      - WWLink 4y ago
        > SLRs don't take "better" photos, they take more detailed photos. The best photo is the one you actually took because you had the camera on you and didn't miss the shot. At this point I want to go back to using a pocket camera. I can turn it on and take a picture without having to look at the screen. There's no automatic cloud uploads. I don't have to worry about someone logging metrics or scanning the pictures or AI doing weird things like filling in moon textures. I take picture. I get picture. That's it. I don't have to worry about cloud subscriptions or "ecosystems" (GAH!) or whatever. I stick the SD card in my computer and there's the fucking pictures. Done.
- asdff 4y ago
  Its enough of a boom for a small company like fujifilm to justify producing more cameras and lenses and even start up and grow a medium format mirrorless ecosystem. Fujifilm in particular struggles to keep up with demand which is probably not easy given global shortages, but it goes to show there is a market. It's not the market it was in 1995 or 2005, but its a market no less because there's always a demand for the best image technolgy can do. Phone cameras will always look worse than their contemporary full size counterparts just due to physics, so the pros and prosumers will always be in demand of a dedicated rig even if their iphone looks like a spider on the back. Not to mention even today just from an OS standpoint, no phone has feature parity with even the first dslr released since phone manufacturers "childproof" camera features that pro camera manufacturers assume you don't need your hand held to use. Usually you have to resort to a third party app if you want to set a manual exposure, you know, something any photographer since 1860 could do that we now deem to be "too advanced" for modern humans.
  - bydo 4y ago
    Fujifilm is a twenty billion dollar company. Imaging is just a hobby for them. Though I agree that if it were truly hemorrhaging them money, they'd have sold it (like Minolta or Pentax) or spun it out into its own entity (like Olympus).
- arghwhat 4y ago
  The point-and-shoot market collapsed, but the dslr market is not nearly as dramatically affected with 2010 numbers not too far off 2018 numbers based on statista charts[1]. On the other hand, mirrorless is starting to show growth[2]. Looking at the overall camera-sales are misleading, especially considering that it largely shuffled numbers around within big companies: A Samsung point-and-shoot with a Samsung sensor became a Samsung smartphone with a Samsung sensor, selling even more units with the camera still being a primary selling point. --- [1]: https://seekingalpha.com/article/4242091-why-nikon-and-canon-should-lower-prices-of-lenses-and-camera-accessories https://seekingalpha.com/article/4242091-why-nikon-and-canon... [2]: https://petapixel.com/2023/02/15/2022-was-officially-the-year-of-the-mirrorless-camera/ https://petapixel.com/2023/02/15/2022-was-officially-the-yea... (using CIPA data)
  - asdff 4y ago
    Also, certain camera brands are less affected than others. Fuji is probably doing better than its ever done these days and has trouble keeping inventory in stock from demand, whereas nikon is at a historic low.
  - dukeyukey 4y ago
    I'm kinda curious why though, and I'm speaking as someone who bought a mirrorless camera (I think my first camera ever?) about a year ago.
- gsich 4y ago
  And with good reason. While I like shooting with DSLM some software and hardware parts are just bad. No GPS. The cheapest Android phone from 5 years ago has this. I don't want to use the shitty app to get geoinformation. Yes, battery lifetime - no need to enable it by default. No embedded storage. With SSD prices cheap as now, add some 64 or 128GB storage. Keep the card slot. More computational stuff, no need for enabling it by default, but stuff like taking 10 pictures, then selecting the best one automatically (or whatever the camera thinks is best). Additional: enable better tethering. On my Nikon Z7 I still can't set everything from the computer. Some settings depend on the mode (P,A,S,M) - why? Nobody knows. If no flash, at least have some light.
  - Lammy 4y ago
    They exist! My YN455 interchangeable-lens Android camera has all of those things. It uses the same 20MP MFT sensor as my PEN-F and I love it a lot: https://www.yongnuomall.com/product/detail/16254 https://www.yongnuomall.com/product/detail/16254
    - outofpaper 4y ago
      Does that have a cell modem? An m4/3 camera with wifi and cell data sounds amazing?
      - Lammy 4y ago
        Yes, I use it on Mint (T-Mobile). Some screenshots I took just now: https://imgur.com/a/x8TU7o3 https://imgur.com/a/x8TU7o3 It's picky about certain zooms, but it is fantastic with all of my primes (Lumix 20mm F1.7 ASPH and SIGMA 56mm F1.4 DC DN being my favs) and with any of my cine lenses. It's fine for stills as long as I can stand the e-shutter, but I love it for video. Unfortunately I can't seem to share an accurate video sample because Youtube's recompression is adding a ton of horrible choppiness that isn't in the actual camera output: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCbnbKvNZlg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCbnbKvNZlg (Shot on LAOWA 6mm T2.1 Zero-D Cine. Warning: loud!!)
- JenrHywy 4y ago
  And yet, popular cameras like the Fujifilm X100V are selling for above retail because demand is outstripping supply.
adrr 4y ago
It isn't a boom. It is just a transition from DSRL/video cameras to mirrorless. Market is consolidating around mirrorless for everything from photography to video. Hire a wedding photography and a wedding videographer today, they may have the same equipment.
- thomasjb 4y ago
  I believe that TLRs are going to make a resurgence and wipe out this mirrorless fad
  - Krisando 4y ago
    I have yet to see a TLR in real life.
WWLink 4y ago
Yea now we're going to have to put up with youtubers trying to build a brand and shove their personality into every review they make. :(

by asdff 4y ago

bradlys 4y ago

a "boom" is an overstatement. The camera industry overall is dying and struggling. We're down to something like 10% of camera sales from 2010. There is no boom. There is a transition from DSLR to mirrorless for the few existing dedicated camera photographers out there.

cozzyd 4y ago
10% camera sales or 10% ILC sales? The point and click market is obviously irrelevant for a mirrorless boom.
- klodolph 4y ago
  Point and shoot peaked in 2010, I think. Camera sales have dropped by something like 90% since 2010, if you exclude smartphones. Any “boom” is just consumers shuffling around within a collapsing market.
noncoml 4y ago
Definitely not a boom, but there is still a sizable niche community that I would thought to be big enough to support a good website. For example there is no boom of home audio systems anymore, but there are enough audiophiles to support a number of sites and magazines
johnvanommen 4y ago
I have a $600 DSLR that I bought at Costco on a whim, fifteen years ago. Once in a blue moon I look at my old photos and realize they just look night and day better than anything I've taken in the last decade. Camera phone lenses do alright when it's sunny outside, but DSLRs kill it when it comes to medium and low light.
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  The only people who think Smartphone Cameras take better pictures than SLRs are not photographers. It is not just low light, it is depth of field, exposure control, the minimization or absence of computed exposures. I have an iPhone 13 Pro Max and only shot in RAW mode. That is the best I can do. Saving money fro a mirrorless camera so i can start shooting again.
  - tonyarkles 4y ago
    > The only people who think Smartphone Cameras take better pictures than SLRs are not photographers. Amateur photographer here, currently have a Canon 80D and a 20-year collection of medium-quality lenses. You're completely right. The photos that this thing takes are miles ahead of my iPhone 12 Pro; you just can't beat a sensor with big pixels and an aperture that's 10-100x (? I don't know the actual ratio) larger than a smartphone lens. But the one nuance is the old saying "the best camera in the world is the one you've got with you"; I have some beautiful shots from this camera, and the 20D before it, and the Rebel XT before it, but some of my absolute favourites were shot on a smartphone because it was in my pocket at the right time and the DSLR was at home in the bag.
  - astrange 4y ago
    SLRs don't take "better" photos, they take more detailed photos. The best photo is the one you actually took because you had the camera on you and didn't miss the shot. And if you want the most detailed photo, SLRs are not the highest quality cameras either when you could rent a Fujifilm GFX 100.
    - WWLink 4y ago
      > SLRs don't take "better" photos, they take more detailed photos. The best photo is the one you actually took because you had the camera on you and didn't miss the shot. At this point I want to go back to using a pocket camera. I can turn it on and take a picture without having to look at the screen. There's no automatic cloud uploads. I don't have to worry about someone logging metrics or scanning the pictures or AI doing weird things like filling in moon textures. I take picture. I get picture. That's it. I don't have to worry about cloud subscriptions or "ecosystems" (GAH!) or whatever. I stick the SD card in my computer and there's the fucking pictures. Done.
asdff 4y ago
Its enough of a boom for a small company like fujifilm to justify producing more cameras and lenses and even start up and grow a medium format mirrorless ecosystem. Fujifilm in particular struggles to keep up with demand which is probably not easy given global shortages, but it goes to show there is a market. It's not the market it was in 1995 or 2005, but its a market no less because there's always a demand for the best image technolgy can do. Phone cameras will always look worse than their contemporary full size counterparts just due to physics, so the pros and prosumers will always be in demand of a dedicated rig even if their iphone looks like a spider on the back. Not to mention even today just from an OS standpoint, no phone has feature parity with even the first dslr released since phone manufacturers "childproof" camera features that pro camera manufacturers assume you don't need your hand held to use. Usually you have to resort to a third party app if you want to set a manual exposure, you know, something any photographer since 1860 could do that we now deem to be "too advanced" for modern humans.
- bydo 4y ago
  Fujifilm is a twenty billion dollar company. Imaging is just a hobby for them. Though I agree that if it were truly hemorrhaging them money, they'd have sold it (like Minolta or Pentax) or spun it out into its own entity (like Olympus).
arghwhat 4y ago
The point-and-shoot market collapsed, but the dslr market is not nearly as dramatically affected with 2010 numbers not too far off 2018 numbers based on statista charts[1]. On the other hand, mirrorless is starting to show growth[2]. Looking at the overall camera-sales are misleading, especially considering that it largely shuffled numbers around within big companies: A Samsung point-and-shoot with a Samsung sensor became a Samsung smartphone with a Samsung sensor, selling even more units with the camera still being a primary selling point. --- [1]: https://seekingalpha.com/article/4242091-why-nikon-and-canon-should-lower-prices-of-lenses-and-camera-accessories https://seekingalpha.com/article/4242091-why-nikon-and-canon... [2]: https://petapixel.com/2023/02/15/2022-was-officially-the-year-of-the-mirrorless-camera/ https://petapixel.com/2023/02/15/2022-was-officially-the-yea... (using CIPA data)
- asdff 4y ago
  Also, certain camera brands are less affected than others. Fuji is probably doing better than its ever done these days and has trouble keeping inventory in stock from demand, whereas nikon is at a historic low.
- dukeyukey 4y ago
  I'm kinda curious why though, and I'm speaking as someone who bought a mirrorless camera (I think my first camera ever?) about a year ago.
gsich 4y ago
And with good reason. While I like shooting with DSLM some software and hardware parts are just bad. No GPS. The cheapest Android phone from 5 years ago has this. I don't want to use the shitty app to get geoinformation. Yes, battery lifetime - no need to enable it by default. No embedded storage. With SSD prices cheap as now, add some 64 or 128GB storage. Keep the card slot. More computational stuff, no need for enabling it by default, but stuff like taking 10 pictures, then selecting the best one automatically (or whatever the camera thinks is best). Additional: enable better tethering. On my Nikon Z7 I still can't set everything from the computer. Some settings depend on the mode (P,A,S,M) - why? Nobody knows. If no flash, at least have some light.
- Lammy 4y ago
  They exist! My YN455 interchangeable-lens Android camera has all of those things. It uses the same 20MP MFT sensor as my PEN-F and I love it a lot: https://www.yongnuomall.com/product/detail/16254 https://www.yongnuomall.com/product/detail/16254
  - outofpaper 4y ago
    Does that have a cell modem? An m4/3 camera with wifi and cell data sounds amazing?
    - Lammy 4y ago
      Yes, I use it on Mint (T-Mobile). Some screenshots I took just now: https://imgur.com/a/x8TU7o3 https://imgur.com/a/x8TU7o3 It's picky about certain zooms, but it is fantastic with all of my primes (Lumix 20mm F1.7 ASPH and SIGMA 56mm F1.4 DC DN being my favs) and with any of my cine lenses. It's fine for stills as long as I can stand the e-shutter, but I love it for video. Unfortunately I can't seem to share an accurate video sample because Youtube's recompression is adding a ton of horrible choppiness that isn't in the actual camera output: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCbnbKvNZlg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCbnbKvNZlg (Shot on LAOWA 6mm T2.1 Zero-D Cine. Warning: loud!!)
JenrHywy 4y ago
And yet, popular cameras like the Fujifilm X100V are selling for above retail because demand is outstripping supply.

adrr 4y ago

It isn't a boom. It is just a transition from DSRL/video cameras to mirrorless. Market is consolidating around mirrorless for everything from photography to video. Hire a wedding photography and a wedding videographer today, they may have the same equipment.

thomasjb 4y ago
I believe that TLRs are going to make a resurgence and wipe out this mirrorless fad
- Krisando 4y ago
  I have yet to see a TLR in real life.

WWLink 4y ago

Yea now we're going to have to put up with youtubers trying to build a brand and shove their personality into every review they make. :(