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No it doesn't, that's just people trying to tie together two hobby-horses. Nobody is migrating to Europe or America because of climate change, they're migrating

No it doesn't, that's just people trying to tie together two hobby-horses. Nobody is migrating to Europe or America because of climate change, they're migrating because of wealth and war.

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
If you live in an agricultural area and can't get sufficient water for irrigation anymore, the distinction between climate change, wealth and war is pretty immaterial. Do you seriously think that if, in say 30 years, substantial chunks of the tropics-to-tropics range of latitude have become too hot/dry for mass agriculture, that people will not be trying to migrate? I haven't seen anyone claiming that there is currently mass migration due to climate change. But I haven't seen anyone claiming that previous climate change events (anthropogenic or not) were not accompanied by mass migration (even if the absolute numbers of people were smaller due to total population)
- revelio 4y ago
  You used the present tense in the post I replied to. But as you say, currently it's not true and there is no correlation between climate change and migration, because the climate hasn't actually changed anywhere near enough in any location to cause people to move. > I haven't seen anyone claiming that previous climate change events (anthropogenic or not) were not accompanied by mass migration What climate change events were you thinking of? Medieval warm period? I don't think there's any record of anything that we'd call a mass migration, any time in history beyond the past few hundred years. Not unless you count migrations that took place over tens of thousands of years as mass migration.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
    > the climate hasn't actually changed anywhere near enough in any location to cause people to move. Where I live (near Santa Fe, NM), human civilization has moved in and out several times over the last, say, 5000 years, always correlated with the arrival of long term drought conditions. The last big movement was during the megadrought of the late 1300's, and apparently involved migrations of between 300 and 1000 miles. Similar patterns are well known to archaeologists and anthropologists across the planet. Also "and migration" doesn't have any tense or time context and even the GP's wording ("X tends to correlate with Y") is also largely free of any implied time period.
brnt 4y ago
The Syrian conflict started after 4 or so successive years of crop failures, which have been linked to desertification and climate change.
- revelio 4y ago
  You don't think that had more to do with ISIS than climate change?
  - brnt 4y ago
    ISIS came after the breakdown of society due to crop failure after crop failure. Migration started end masse after Russia was invited over to kill every civilian in sight. But that is also after Assad lost the ability to control and feed the population, something he wasn't doing very well anyway, granted, but without climate change related failed harvests its hard to imagine it had spiralled out of control.

No it doesn't, that's just people trying to tie together two hobby-horses. Nobody is migrating to Europe or America because of climate change, they're migrating because of wealth and war.

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago

If you live in an agricultural area and can't get sufficient water for irrigation anymore, the distinction between climate change, wealth and war is pretty immaterial. Do you seriously think that if, in say 30 years, substantial chunks of the tropics-to-tropics range of latitude have become too hot/dry for mass agriculture, that people will not be trying to migrate? I haven't seen anyone claiming that there is currently mass migration due to climate change. But I haven't seen anyone claiming that previous climate change events (anthropogenic or not) were not accompanied by mass migration (even if the absolute numbers of people were smaller due to total population)

revelio 4y ago
You used the present tense in the post I replied to. But as you say, currently it's not true and there is no correlation between climate change and migration, because the climate hasn't actually changed anywhere near enough in any location to cause people to move. > I haven't seen anyone claiming that previous climate change events (anthropogenic or not) were not accompanied by mass migration What climate change events were you thinking of? Medieval warm period? I don't think there's any record of anything that we'd call a mass migration, any time in history beyond the past few hundred years. Not unless you count migrations that took place over tens of thousands of years as mass migration.
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  > the climate hasn't actually changed anywhere near enough in any location to cause people to move. Where I live (near Santa Fe, NM), human civilization has moved in and out several times over the last, say, 5000 years, always correlated with the arrival of long term drought conditions. The last big movement was during the megadrought of the late 1300's, and apparently involved migrations of between 300 and 1000 miles. Similar patterns are well known to archaeologists and anthropologists across the planet. Also "and migration" doesn't have any tense or time context and even the GP's wording ("X tends to correlate with Y") is also largely free of any implied time period.

brnt 4y ago

The Syrian conflict started after 4 or so successive years of crop failures, which have been linked to desertification and climate change.

revelio 4y ago
You don't think that had more to do with ISIS than climate change?
- brnt 4y ago
  ISIS came after the breakdown of society due to crop failure after crop failure. Migration started end masse after Russia was invited over to kill every civilian in sight. But that is also after Assad lost the ability to control and feed the population, something he wasn't doing very well anyway, granted, but without climate change related failed harvests its hard to imagine it had spiralled out of control.