7 ms·

We did over attempt to correct, but it had very little impact on actual brutality — just reduced interactions. This is probably cynical, but I think that good

We did over attempt to correct, but it had very little impact on actual brutality — just reduced interactions. This is probably cynical, but I think that good policing will have more instances of brutality than we’d like. I think to fix this you probably would need to spend a lot more money than anyone would want to.

myko 4y ago
Maybe you're right that the US refuses to spend enough money to handle this, but other countries seem to do fine. I'm really impressed with the German Polizei, for example. Their cops are better trained, friendlier, and actually seem to want to help the community.
- kenjackson 4y ago
  In the US you need to spend enough money to hire different people. That said there are some really good cops too. But our judicial system often puts them in harms way for no great reason. There’s a guy on the street here who has been arrested about 75 times. He doesn’t care about cops at all — and I’m amazed at the patience cops have with him. Especially knowing he will be back on the street in a couple of days.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    On average, police in the US are paid very handsomely. They're often among the highest paid general "public servant" positions in the government in each state[1]. From a quick look online, the German police make about 60k EUR a year, or around 64k USD at current (not favorable!) exchange rates. The average American cop makes significantly more, even before you factor in taxes[2] (these numbers are by state, so you should weight them for population.) [1]: https://nypost.com/2018/08/27/new-yorks-best-paid-public-employees-are-long-island-cops/ https://nypost.com/2018/08/27/new-yorks-best-paid-public-emp... [2]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewdepietro/2020/04/23/police-officer-salary-state/?sh=5d694d912010 https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewdepietro/2020/04/23/polic...
    - nerdponx 4y ago
      As I've mentioned a few times here and elsewhere, IMO police salaries would be justified if they were actually good at their jobs, or at least not openly corrupt and abusive. Policing in America is absolutely a dangerous and difficult job. It's just that the numbers start to look a little more questionable when you look at how police departments actually behave.
      - woodruffw 4y ago
        I agree with you! That being said: police work is dangerous, but not uniquely or disproportionately dangerous: it doesn't crack the top 20 most dangerous jobs in the US[1], nearly all of which pay less than the police do. Being a delivery driver is nearly twice as dangerous, for half the average pay. When we talk about the dangers inherent to policing, it's maybe worth considering whether those dangers are our own fault: cops in the US employ lethal and "less-lethal" force far often than cops in other countries do, and public trust in the police (leading to panicked interactions) is correspondingly lower. [1]: https://www.ishn.com/articles/112748-top-25-most-dangerous-jobs-in-the-united-states https://www.ishn.com/articles/112748-top-25-most-dangerous-j...
        ROTMetro 4y ago
        It's dangerous because police turn EVERY interaction into a warrant check. You have to treat a guy who is possibly holding a warrant for arrest for a crime with a 20+ year sentence different than you treat Bob who you pulled over because his stereo was too loud or his window tint to dark and that is all the stop is going to be about. Making community policing community policing not warrant enforcement and you just changed the ENTIRE dynamic and get back to actual community policing.
        jstarfish 4y ago
        > different than you treat Bob who you pulled over because his stereo was too loud or his window tint to dark and that is all the stop is going to be about. Is it really all the stop is going to be about? You can guarantee that? Not every criminal is a fugitive with an outstanding warrant. Some of them are unlucky enough to get pulled over during the getaway from their first capital offense for minor violations as stupid as window tint or loud stereos. It's like cheating-- if you're willing to break one rule, you're willing to break others. This is why these nitpicky laws for stupid shit exist. So it won't end well when a meter maid expecting to write a tint violation ticket notices banging and thumping coming from Bob's trunk on an empty road. Alice is armed with a ticket printer. Bob is armed with god knows what, because given the limousine tint Alice can't see into the car as well as Bob can see out of it. (Besides, people assault-and-batter meter maids in less-dire situations all the time. Suspects are supposed to fear the enforcement officer, not size them up.) We literally train kidnapping victims trapped in trunks to sabotage brake lights because it will attract police attention and sufficiently-armed-and-trained intervention. The Department of Motor Vehicles isn't going to be who saves your ass.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- MinorTom 4y ago
  Relatively speaking the German police is better than the US police, but they still lack in accountability. If you want more information, see the article on the murder of Oury Jalloh [1] and that police department [2] <(contains murder, rape, police violence, other) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Oury_Jalloh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Oury_Jalloh https://de-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Oury_Jalloh?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://de-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Oury_Jalloh?_... [2] https://de-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/#?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp&_x_tr_hist=true https://de-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/#?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x...
ROTMetro 4y ago
You want to fix American policing? Stop warrant checks as part of community policing. When the people in the car the police just traffic stopped for a tail light could be facing a 20 year prison sentence the police have to treat that stop and have a wariness towards the vehicle's occupants way different from if it was, say, just a traffic stop for a tail light. Escalating every community interaction by making it warrant enforcement you change the entire risk equation. A guy getting a tail light ticket is different then a guy about to get a warrant enforced for an accused crime with a 20 year sentence. You want to even further reduce the escalation of the interactions? Stop with the 20 year (which is basically life if you are realistic about it, no one getting out after 20 years is getting their life back) sentences.
DrewADesign 4y ago
> "This is probably cynical, but I think that good policing will have more instances of brutality than we’d like." There's no we here. If your interpretation of what makes policing good involves brutality as a necessary evil, that has a lot more to do with your tolerance of government abuse than policing, and I don't share that.

myko 4y ago

Maybe you're right that the US refuses to spend enough money to handle this, but other countries seem to do fine. I'm really impressed with the German Polizei, for example. Their cops are better trained, friendlier, and actually seem to want to help the community.

kenjackson 4y ago
In the US you need to spend enough money to hire different people. That said there are some really good cops too. But our judicial system often puts them in harms way for no great reason. There’s a guy on the street here who has been arrested about 75 times. He doesn’t care about cops at all — and I’m amazed at the patience cops have with him. Especially knowing he will be back on the street in a couple of days.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  On average, police in the US are paid very handsomely. They're often among the highest paid general "public servant" positions in the government in each state[1]. From a quick look online, the German police make about 60k EUR a year, or around 64k USD at current (not favorable!) exchange rates. The average American cop makes significantly more, even before you factor in taxes[2] (these numbers are by state, so you should weight them for population.) [1]: https://nypost.com/2018/08/27/new-yorks-best-paid-public-employees-are-long-island-cops/ https://nypost.com/2018/08/27/new-yorks-best-paid-public-emp... [2]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewdepietro/2020/04/23/police-officer-salary-state/?sh=5d694d912010 https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewdepietro/2020/04/23/polic...
  - nerdponx 4y ago
    As I've mentioned a few times here and elsewhere, IMO police salaries would be justified if they were actually good at their jobs, or at least not openly corrupt and abusive. Policing in America is absolutely a dangerous and difficult job. It's just that the numbers start to look a little more questionable when you look at how police departments actually behave.
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      I agree with you! That being said: police work is dangerous, but not uniquely or disproportionately dangerous: it doesn't crack the top 20 most dangerous jobs in the US[1], nearly all of which pay less than the police do. Being a delivery driver is nearly twice as dangerous, for half the average pay. When we talk about the dangers inherent to policing, it's maybe worth considering whether those dangers are our own fault: cops in the US employ lethal and "less-lethal" force far often than cops in other countries do, and public trust in the police (leading to panicked interactions) is correspondingly lower. [1]: https://www.ishn.com/articles/112748-top-25-most-dangerous-jobs-in-the-united-states https://www.ishn.com/articles/112748-top-25-most-dangerous-j...
      - ROTMetro 4y ago
        It's dangerous because police turn EVERY interaction into a warrant check. You have to treat a guy who is possibly holding a warrant for arrest for a crime with a 20+ year sentence different than you treat Bob who you pulled over because his stereo was too loud or his window tint to dark and that is all the stop is going to be about. Making community policing community policing not warrant enforcement and you just changed the ENTIRE dynamic and get back to actual community policing.
        jstarfish 4y ago
        > different than you treat Bob who you pulled over because his stereo was too loud or his window tint to dark and that is all the stop is going to be about. Is it really all the stop is going to be about? You can guarantee that? Not every criminal is a fugitive with an outstanding warrant. Some of them are unlucky enough to get pulled over during the getaway from their first capital offense for minor violations as stupid as window tint or loud stereos. It's like cheating-- if you're willing to break one rule, you're willing to break others. This is why these nitpicky laws for stupid shit exist. So it won't end well when a meter maid expecting to write a tint violation ticket notices banging and thumping coming from Bob's trunk on an empty road. Alice is armed with a ticket printer. Bob is armed with god knows what, because given the limousine tint Alice can't see into the car as well as Bob can see out of it. (Besides, people assault-and-batter meter maids in less-dire situations all the time. Suspects are supposed to fear the enforcement officer, not size them up.) We literally train kidnapping victims trapped in trunks to sabotage brake lights because it will attract police attention and sufficiently-armed-and-trained intervention. The Department of Motor Vehicles isn't going to be who saves your ass.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
MinorTom 4y ago
Relatively speaking the German police is better than the US police, but they still lack in accountability. If you want more information, see the article on the murder of Oury Jalloh [1] and that police department [2] <(contains murder, rape, police violence, other) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Oury_Jalloh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Oury_Jalloh https://de-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Oury_Jalloh?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://de-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Oury_Jalloh?_... [2] https://de-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/#?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp&_x_tr_hist=true https://de-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/#?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x...

ROTMetro 4y ago

You want to fix American policing? Stop warrant checks as part of community policing. When the people in the car the police just traffic stopped for a tail light could be facing a 20 year prison sentence the police have to treat that stop and have a wariness towards the vehicle's occupants way different from if it was, say, just a traffic stop for a tail light. Escalating every community interaction by making it warrant enforcement you change the entire risk equation. A guy getting a tail light ticket is different then a guy about to get a warrant enforced for an accused crime with a 20 year sentence. You want to even further reduce the escalation of the interactions? Stop with the 20 year (which is basically life if you are realistic about it, no one getting out after 20 years is getting their life back) sentences.

DrewADesign 4y ago

> "This is probably cynical, but I think that good policing will have more instances of brutality than we’d like." There's no we here. If your interpretation of what makes policing good involves brutality as a necessary evil, that has a lot more to do with your tolerance of government abuse than policing, and I don't share that.