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ThinkPad also has proprietary undocumented subsystems that are reverse engineered to work on Linux. Such double standards versus Apple.

pengaru 4y ago
> ThinkPad also has proprietary undocumented subsystems that are reverse engineered to work on Linux. Such double standards versus Apple. The differentiator for decades now is intel-based laptops, including thinkpads, have been well-supported by mainline kernels including GPU support. Support that Intel has directly funded development and maintenance of. Where are the @apple.com commits supporting Apple Silicon in mainline Linux? Even AMD is better as of amdgpu.
- Mike_12345 4y ago
  Well supported by mainline kernels, thanks to reverse engineering undocumented proprietary Lenovo hardware. ThinkPads contain other components besides the GPU. Apple is not in the business of selling GPUs to other hardware vendors and the fraction of customers demanding Linux support is miniscule. Intel supports Linux as a business decision based on profitability, not open source idealism.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    > Well supported by mainline kernels, thanks to reverse engineering undocumented proprietary Lenovo hardware. Such as? What "proprietary Lenovo hardware" is obfuscating my boot process, I'm really curious now. > Intel supports Linux as a business decision Yes. Intel supports Linux because the concept of selling Unix doesn't work. Take it from Apple, who gave up on selling their OS after realizing that people were really only in it for the hardware. If Intel is the begrudging neighbor to Open Source software, then Apple is holding them in a Mexican standoff with their userbase. Somehow, Intel's "business decision" manages to be the more civilized relationship between the two.
    - Mike_12345 4y ago
      [dead]
  - goosedragons 4y ago
    What components? Lenovo sells several ThinkPad models with Linux out of the box. The fingerprint reader is a source of trouble but it's not a Lenovo part.
    - Mike_12345 4y ago
      Battery, BIOS, touchpad, power management, touch screen, fingerprint scanner, Nvidia GPU, etc. Believe it or not, they sell hardware with Linux OOTB thanks to others reverse engineering their proprietary subsystems.
    - sliken 4y ago
      Over the years I've seen numerous thinkpad tweaks for wifi, sleeping with the lid closed, restarting wifi on lid open, numerous tweaks for the function keys (audio up/down/mute, brightness up/down), clock speed/thermal management, reading battery levels, etc. Seems like the #1 reason thinkpads are well supported is that they are relatively popular among the people who modify the OS and kernel for compatibility. I don't recall that Lenovo is a particularly big contributor to the linux kernel.
error503 4y ago
Sure it has some undocumented subsystems, but compared to the Macs, it has a much stronger claim to openness. Apple has released virtually no information on the internals of these machines, and they aren't standard PCs like the Lenovos. Calling them 'open' is absurd, it would be hard to imagine a publicly released general-purpose computer that is less open.
- Mike_12345 4y ago
  > but compared to the Macs, it has a much stronger claim to openness. False. Lenovo hardware contains a lot of proprietary undocumented parts that required reverse engineering to get working on Linux/BSD. The parts that didn't require reverse engineering (Intel GPU) were not made by Lenovo. Apple hardware is "open" as far as they don't try to prevent other operating systems to be installed. Apparently they made it reasonably straightforward for the Asahi team.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    > Apple hardware is "open" as far as they don't try to prevent other operating systems to be installed. 1. This is not true for "Apple hardware" as a rule. 2. Removing support for third-party OSes would be a shocking product regression for the Macbook. 3. If Apple's definition of "Open" excludes any transparent documentation or explanation, then they have provided precisely nothing. You contradict yourself by praising Apple for keeping standard features while deriding Lenovo for doing the same thing. All of this ignores the Linux certification Lenovo offers on their products, their Linux support contracts and even the freely-provided firmware updates through fwupd (something Apple will never provide). Regardless of whether you characterize "open"-ness as non-hostility or constructive support, Lenovo is still the more open company by a country mile. And Lenovo doesn't even do that much to-boot.
    - Mike_12345 4y ago
      >You contradict yourself by praising Apple for keeping standard features while deriding Lenovo for doing the same thing. Putting words in my mouth. I never praised Apple and I never derided Lenovo. I am simply stating the facts. I am trying to explain that both companies have the same approach. Neither of them are open source idealists. Lenovo is not more open than Apple. Apple is not more open than Lenovo. I am pointing out the double standards and hypocrisy in this thread. I have owned many Lenovo and Apple products and I'm not a fanboy of any company. > 1. This is not true for "Apple hardware" as a rule. It is true for their laptops and desktops. iPhone/iPad are not relevant to this discussion.

pengaru 4y ago

> ThinkPad also has proprietary undocumented subsystems that are reverse engineered to work on Linux. Such double standards versus Apple. The differentiator for decades now is intel-based laptops, including thinkpads, have been well-supported by mainline kernels including GPU support. Support that Intel has directly funded development and maintenance of. Where are the @apple.com commits supporting Apple Silicon in mainline Linux? Even AMD is better as of amdgpu.

Mike_12345 4y ago
Well supported by mainline kernels, thanks to reverse engineering undocumented proprietary Lenovo hardware. ThinkPads contain other components besides the GPU. Apple is not in the business of selling GPUs to other hardware vendors and the fraction of customers demanding Linux support is miniscule. Intel supports Linux as a business decision based on profitability, not open source idealism.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  > Well supported by mainline kernels, thanks to reverse engineering undocumented proprietary Lenovo hardware. Such as? What "proprietary Lenovo hardware" is obfuscating my boot process, I'm really curious now. > Intel supports Linux as a business decision Yes. Intel supports Linux because the concept of selling Unix doesn't work. Take it from Apple, who gave up on selling their OS after realizing that people were really only in it for the hardware. If Intel is the begrudging neighbor to Open Source software, then Apple is holding them in a Mexican standoff with their userbase. Somehow, Intel's "business decision" manages to be the more civilized relationship between the two.
  - Mike_12345 4y ago
    [dead]
- goosedragons 4y ago
  What components? Lenovo sells several ThinkPad models with Linux out of the box. The fingerprint reader is a source of trouble but it's not a Lenovo part.
  - Mike_12345 4y ago
    Battery, BIOS, touchpad, power management, touch screen, fingerprint scanner, Nvidia GPU, etc. Believe it or not, they sell hardware with Linux OOTB thanks to others reverse engineering their proprietary subsystems.
  - sliken 4y ago
    Over the years I've seen numerous thinkpad tweaks for wifi, sleeping with the lid closed, restarting wifi on lid open, numerous tweaks for the function keys (audio up/down/mute, brightness up/down), clock speed/thermal management, reading battery levels, etc. Seems like the #1 reason thinkpads are well supported is that they are relatively popular among the people who modify the OS and kernel for compatibility. I don't recall that Lenovo is a particularly big contributor to the linux kernel.

error503 4y ago

Sure it has some undocumented subsystems, but compared to the Macs, it has a much stronger claim to openness. Apple has released virtually no information on the internals of these machines, and they aren't standard PCs like the Lenovos. Calling them 'open' is absurd, it would be hard to imagine a publicly released general-purpose computer that is less open.

Mike_12345 4y ago
> but compared to the Macs, it has a much stronger claim to openness. False. Lenovo hardware contains a lot of proprietary undocumented parts that required reverse engineering to get working on Linux/BSD. The parts that didn't require reverse engineering (Intel GPU) were not made by Lenovo. Apple hardware is "open" as far as they don't try to prevent other operating systems to be installed. Apparently they made it reasonably straightforward for the Asahi team.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  > Apple hardware is "open" as far as they don't try to prevent other operating systems to be installed. 1. This is not true for "Apple hardware" as a rule. 2. Removing support for third-party OSes would be a shocking product regression for the Macbook. 3. If Apple's definition of "Open" excludes any transparent documentation or explanation, then they have provided precisely nothing. You contradict yourself by praising Apple for keeping standard features while deriding Lenovo for doing the same thing. All of this ignores the Linux certification Lenovo offers on their products, their Linux support contracts and even the freely-provided firmware updates through fwupd (something Apple will never provide). Regardless of whether you characterize "open"-ness as non-hostility or constructive support, Lenovo is still the more open company by a country mile. And Lenovo doesn't even do that much to-boot.
  - Mike_12345 4y ago
    >You contradict yourself by praising Apple for keeping standard features while deriding Lenovo for doing the same thing. Putting words in my mouth. I never praised Apple and I never derided Lenovo. I am simply stating the facts. I am trying to explain that both companies have the same approach. Neither of them are open source idealists. Lenovo is not more open than Apple. Apple is not more open than Lenovo. I am pointing out the double standards and hypocrisy in this thread. I have owned many Lenovo and Apple products and I'm not a fanboy of any company. > 1. This is not true for "Apple hardware" as a rule. It is true for their laptops and desktops. iPhone/iPad are not relevant to this discussion.