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The whole debate is frankly embarrassing for both sides... Of course, admittedly more so for Curebit - but I can't be the only one who thinks that DHH's cocky a
by JackWebbHeller 15y ago
The whole debate is frankly embarrassing for both sides... Of course, admittedly more so for Curebit - but I can't be the only one who thinks that DHH's cocky attitude, publicly tweeting things like "Fucking scumbags", is just embarrassing when he is the main face of a friendly and professional company like 37Signals...?
- zerostar07 15y agoYou 're not the only one. I would even call it an understandable mistake for someone who just launched. Telling them to go get some ethics, calling them indecent and scumbags is not the right response. You point their wrongdoings, and let others come to those conclusions, esp. when the accused shows some signs of repent. For comparison, when the Oatmeal found his comics stolen, here's how he responded: http://theoatmeal.com/blog/funnyjunk http://theoatmeal.com/blog/funnyjunk PS. i'm not defending anyone, but as an outsider i found the response was over the top and allangrant didn't call any names
- jsavimbi 15y agoAre you under the assumption that these are fresh-faced kids out of school who don't know how to dress themselves, let alone "launch" a web app? You might want to go and study some LinkedIn profiles before apologizing for these guys. And as far is DHH is concerned, why would you want to steal from him in the first place. He gave his best work away for free. I'm no fan but I believe he's entitled to call these people out. In whatever tone he deems appropriate. Get used to it if you think following Curebit's steps is the way to go. It's a rough world out there. Yet Stallman is coddled every time he calls someone "evil" and wishes them dead. Odd that.
- route66 15y ago> why would you want to steal from him in the first place Read your own answer here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3453379 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3453379
- comice 15y agoI'm not disagreeing with your other points, but Stallman did not wish anyone dead. He actually said nobody deserves to die, but we sometimes deserve the end of their bad influence.
- jsavimbi 15y agoI think most people with experience and maturity understood what was said by Stallman and interpreted it correctly, including the timing of his remarks. Neither you, nor I, know what Stallman wished for or against.
- ktsmith 15y agoYou realize there's two parts to the oatmeal response right? It also includes strong language. For example: "To the users of FunnyJunk: I never had plans to sue FunnyJunk and get it shut down; I just wanted my stolen comics removed -- your admin is a moron who chooses his words about as carefully as a mule chooses where to take a shit."
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- wormwood28 15y agoAnyone who has seen the wrath poured out on people who dislike (or disagree with) the oatmeal on its facebook page has to laugh a bit when the creator -- I forget his name -- is held up as a model of level-headed behavior.
- arguesalot 15y agoyou realize that was 1 year after the situation started and after he contacted the funnyjunk staff
- LearnYouALisp 15y agoThat wasn't even poor choice of words, he deliberately tried to instigate a riot and sensationalized the response.
- ktsmith 15y agoI agree actually, I was just pointing out that it was a bit hypocritical to hold up the oatmeal as a good example of responding to being ripped off. I'm not particularly offended by the response of DHH to curebits either.
- LearnYouALisp 15y agoYeah, I meant what he said in the quote--I don't know if he should have said anything more, but it certainly seems far from a mere "poor choice of words".
- unobfuscate 15y agoAmazing response. This is an even stronger case, as these clone sites are duplicating his business, and taking money right from his pocket in the process. He/She handled it in a standup fashion. This makes the whole debate even stranger. The fella from Curebit messed up in a lot of ways (really, he couldn't even be bothered to host the content himself?), but on a scale of 1 to a million, I would put this whole mess at closer to 1. Let's be frank, any html/css/js you toss online can be sourced, it is the nature of the client side rendering world we live in. Where do you draw the line, is it not okay to use someone else's javascript function? Is it not okay to use their mix of background colour and fonts? When we start to decide what is and is not okay, we start to create some scary precedence.
- bigiain 15y agoTwo comments. Firstly, it seems to me that the current mega upload drama seems to say that the FBI thinks funnyjunk's business model puts them smack in the middle of whatever the proper legal terminology is when lawyers mean "fucking scumbags". Secondly, you only need to click on "update" link from the page you linked to to find the oatmeal guy calling the funnyjunk guy a moron... I understand that there's a large section of the US society that has a significantly lower tolerance for "curse words" than at least my cross section of Australian society, but "fucking scumbag" is pretty close the the terminology I'd use if someone "stole" a bunch of design work like that from my business (I'd not use that terminology quite so publicly, since the other stakeholders where I am wouldn't appreciate it, and I'm happy to self-censor on a business front to meet their expectations...)
- zerostar07 15y agothat was a year later
- ryanbraganza 15y agoDid you see the update? "To the users of FunnyJunk: I never had plans to sue FunnyJunk and get it shut down; I just wanted my stolen comics removed -- your admin is a moron who chooses his words about as carefully as a mule chooses where to take a shit." http://theoatmeal.com/blog/funnyjunk2 http://theoatmeal.com/blog/funnyjunk2
- mcantelon 15y agoIt's truly shocking to hear DHH use profanity.
- ascendant 15y agoNice sarcasm. The fact still remains that maybe DHH should take a deep breath and remember back before he was a millionaire. I'm by no means condoning what Curebit has done but unless DHH tried to contact them discreetly and they told him to go hell, I think maybe he could have taken it down a notch before he went roadhouse on these guys.
- cilurnum 15y agoThis is a little beyond the pale and I fail to see why DHH should contact them discreetly. No, I don't like DHH's attitude sometimes but lifting code straight from someone's site is just so brain-dead it defies belief. The vast majority of developers would certainly have a look at other peoples' layouts but lifting code straight is just unreal.
- zerostar07 15y agoThis will be controversial, but if it were real programming code i would be angry. Since it's just html/css, static stuff, one may say it's not a big deal. In fact that was curebit's first response: they asked if they should keep the code and just add credit. I know it's wrong, but in the broad internet ethics it seems to be considered a certain form of fair use.
- jowiar 15y ago"if it were real programming code i would be angry " -> the work of "programmers" is worth plenty, but the work of designers is worth zilch. To be fair, this is also the attitude taken by Curebit.
- kmfrk 15y agoI think what you are trying to do away with is something fundamental to DHH/37 Signals. They think they got to where they are because of who they are, and they've gone on to write several books and blog posts on the matter. I am personally not a fan of their attitude, but there are a lot of people enabling them.
- dedene 15y agoAgreed!
- GuiA 15y agoRegarding your dhh comment, quite a few engineers cultivate this image of themselves very consciously (and some companies, although not 37Signals, have a reputation for having higher concentrations of such engineers). At the very least, they're smart people and therefore are likely conscious that the way they publicly speak influences how most people will view them and the company they represent. It's a shame that we all can't be polite and friendly and remember pg's golden rule every once in a while, but alas there's not much we can do about it. Let's spend our time on more important things :)
- electic 15y agoI tend to agree. We are ALL inspired by other people's work. If you say you are "completely original" then you are the scumbag and a blatant liar. I think DHH should have just said that "I am sure it will be resolved and Curebit will do the right thing." instead. The whole situation is just lame.
- stephth 15y agoMost companies handle this with a well architected wall of PR. DHH is managing to be direct while maintaining full integrity. I don't think it's embarrassing at all, it's quite an achievement, and it's hugely refreshing to see. Curebit not only screwed up bad, but they kept digging deeper and deeper in their debate. I'm really glad they're being called for with directness and severity. You should be too.
- patrickod 15y agoMaintaining integrity usually doesn't consist of calling people "fucking scumbags". Notify people of their mistake, make it known that what they have done is not acceptable but crossing into personal insults and curses is not acceptable.
- stephth 15y agofucking |ˈfəkiNG| used for emphasis or to express anger, annoyance, contempt, or surprise. scumbag |ˈskəmˌbag| a contemptible or objectionable person. It's appropriate. EDIT: here's full context per JackWebbHeller's request: @dhh The Sharebooster site is serving even more images straight off the Highrise server: http://yfrog.com/oddh4zoj http://yfrog.com/oddh4zoj . Fucking scumbags.
- JackWebbHeller 15y agoIt's appropriate when taken out of context with two generic dictionary definitions...
- zerostar07 15y agoad hominem attacks are never appropriate
- Shenglong 15y agoThat's not true at all. They are appropriate when you are actually trying to deflate the opposing side's character. For example, if someone has a history of making poor choices, it's likely that any further choice they make is also likely poor. That's why judges often take into consideration whether an offense is someone's first, or someone's third. With that being said, both sides definitely should have reconsidered their PR strategy. Both being techies, it's reasonable to assume that they should be fully aware of how things like this propagate on the internet.
- malbiniak 15y agoWith all due respect to Jason and DHH, I wouldn't consider 37signals a "friendly" company. Mailchimp is a friendly company, but even still, I could see Ben (or any founder) having a similar reaction. If I found someone blatantly repurposing something I worked hard to create, I'd have a similar reaction. This guys aren't CXOs of a Fortune 100 company that need to fear how the board and stock holders may react (and god fucking bless 'em for that). They're scrappy guys still hustling like they launched yesterday. Calling them "fucking scumbags" isn't a cocky response, it's a free reality check. Poor Allan had a pretty significant lapse of judgment, and DHH may have given him the most valuable lesson of his life.
- imcqueen 15y ago37Signals is making their point heard, but it's not the professional way to handle things. I completely understand the reaction, DHH is rightfully upset. It's usually best to take some time to cool off and then respond when you're a little less emotional.
- neotorama 15y agoThat's not DHH way. He is fast with everything.
- untog 15y agoBut that doesn't make it right. "It's how he approaches everything" isn't a reason, it's context.
- ericd 15y agoJust because an emotional response goes against MBA Corporate PR 101 doesn't make it wrong. He can do whatever he wants, and he does. In the context of his company, I'd even say it's a winning business strategy, because it's different and doesn't feel artificial, which is refreshing in this age of sterilized corporate communications, and is therefore memorable. And there's nothing morally wrong about fighting back against people who have ripped you off.
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- BallinBige 15y agoWould you prefer the (more creative) way Tiny Tower approached Zynga for blatantly ripping their game concept + design? yes, its embarrassing for both sides - but people SHOULD know these kind of things https://s3.amazonaws.com/nbpromo/dearzynga.jpg https://s3.amazonaws.com/nbpromo/dearzynga.jpg
- zerostar07 15y agoIt's interesting that zynga mostly gets a free pass from name-calling when they ripoff game ideas. The only way to explain it is that zynga is a public company that makes lots of money, which surprisingly gives them some sort of immunity.
- jfarmer 15y agoHow does Zynga get a free pass? People rip into them all the time for stealing, copying, ripping off, etc. other people's games, ideas, and mechanics. There have even been lawsuits, some of which Zynga lost. They make so much money they don't care, and they made that money long before they were public.
- BryanB55 15y agoI partially agree and thought the same thing when reading DHH's responses but it seems that that may be part of his personality. If you read any of his blog posts on SVN he tends to use some "not-so-friendly language"... In my opinion, it gets annoying and seems a bit unintelligent when he is always cursing.
- eurohacker 15y agoyes, DHH is the guilty one here, we all like to steal once in a while from other authors, but DHH is calling people bad names here, so lets kick DHH out of the club