5 ms·

I think you need to intelligently create and build a parallel institution, with goals, tools, and organization culture better aligned to the needs of building u

I think you need to intelligently create and build a parallel institution, with goals, tools, and organization culture better aligned to the needs of building up communities while keeping order in a modern society. Start with a small scope at the start, fulfilling a small need in a niche part of government. You want to avoid starting a large organization or growing fast, as that would require to lift pieces and personel from existing law enforcement. Then you demonstrate value and a better track record as you build the good-will and cultural cache to slowly expand and push out traditional law enforcement from more and more areas of concern. This should be fairly tractable, as most law enforcement forces these days have a vast array of duties. You will need a deft political hand to avoid getting on the bad side of existing "law and order" political power centers. You need to present yourself as someone who cares about safety and wants to free up cops to focus on "serious crime". This will help you control the narrative and undermine the eventual "not tough on crime" arguments.

Beldin 4y ago
Problem: that's been tried and failed so far. Eg. campus police, security guards, etc. I think one major problem is that rejects from one domain can transition to another domain without penalties or problems.
- klyrs 4y ago
  Campus police and security guards are just an extension of the state-monopolized violence concept; that isn't what GP was suggesting.
ianburrell 4y ago
Portland has been having success with Street Response program. 911 dispatches teams of EMTs and mental health specialists to deal with mental health crises. I have wondered if could have separate organization or non-armed police that deals with administrative issues. Like taking reports or investigating crimes. I think it would be fine doing noise complaints or traffic violations. These are all things that the police have been ignoring recently. I think it would also reduce the problems with having armed police dealing with everything.
- crooked-v 4y ago
  As someone living in Portland, I'll add to this that there's a general sense here that Street Response does a great job at handling these issues in a way that's both humane and efficient, while at the same time pretty much the entire city would agree that the police here have been intentionally both slow and unhelpful for years. I think the biggest takeaway here is that having smaller organizations focused around specific areas, and that have legal intervention power but aren't inherently organized around violence, can help with public issues in statistically significant ways, and do it for cheap. PSR's budget is $12.6 million/year, compared to Portland police getting $249 million in 2023... and yet PSR by itself has reduced police dispatches by 3.2%, reduced fire department dispatches by 3.2%, dramatically cut down on the number of people taken to the hospital as a result of calls, and gets wildly positive reviews from both the general public and the people they respond to, who consider them extremely trustworthy compared to the police.
  - ianburrell 4y ago
    There are two problems in Portland that could benefit from focused non-police groups. I dont know if city could organize them or if police would allow them. There has been big jump in murders since pandemic, mostly gang violence. Other cities have had success engaging with gang members and breaking the cycle of violence. Teams with trusted community members and social workers might have some success. Police probably wouldn’t work unlike cities where they are more trusted. Not sure if group should work with police to solve murder or if that hurt their position. The other place would theft task force, probably inside police but staffed by non-officers. Taking reports would be sufficient but would be better if they could investigate and make cases, No need for armed police except for arrests.
    - crooked-v 4y ago
      On that second part, I think that Portland, like many other cities, would benefit tremendously if there was a legally empowered but non-police group that existed for after-the-fact fact-finding and record-keeping responses to crimes that have already occurred. Currently if a theft or robbery happens here, the police pretty much don't give a shit and will only even record it if you hassle them at length about it.
thelock85 4y ago
Raheem.ai is building the PATCH network as an alternative dispatch system for community crisis responders to show up instead of having to call the police for non-criminal situations. They started with trying to build better complaint systems to support data-driven reform but pivoted toward building an alternative after failing to get buy-in from civic institutions.
rz2k 4y ago
I remember reading Luigi Barzini claim that competition between the Carabinieri and Polizia was intended to limit coordinated corruption. In practice the Guardia di Finanza has been especially important in many corruption cases in Italy. I understood the complaints that a lack of cooperation between law enforcement agencies was instrumental to 9/11, but even at the time putting everything under the Department of Homeland Security sounded like a recipe for a deterioration in attitudes among federal law enforcement agencies, and like it would eventually replicate the problems that come out of police and sheriff unions. I agree that parallel law enforcement that has a reinforced focus on serving the public, and that has minimal contact with rot-inducing organizations is an excellent idea, and may be the only way to affect change without having to bear the increased incidence of work slowdowns suspected in many cities.

Beldin 4y ago

Problem: that's been tried and failed so far. Eg. campus police, security guards, etc. I think one major problem is that rejects from one domain can transition to another domain without penalties or problems.

klyrs 4y ago
Campus police and security guards are just an extension of the state-monopolized violence concept; that isn't what GP was suggesting.

ianburrell 4y ago

Portland has been having success with Street Response program. 911 dispatches teams of EMTs and mental health specialists to deal with mental health crises. I have wondered if could have separate organization or non-armed police that deals with administrative issues. Like taking reports or investigating crimes. I think it would be fine doing noise complaints or traffic violations. These are all things that the police have been ignoring recently. I think it would also reduce the problems with having armed police dealing with everything.

crooked-v 4y ago
As someone living in Portland, I'll add to this that there's a general sense here that Street Response does a great job at handling these issues in a way that's both humane and efficient, while at the same time pretty much the entire city would agree that the police here have been intentionally both slow and unhelpful for years. I think the biggest takeaway here is that having smaller organizations focused around specific areas, and that have legal intervention power but aren't inherently organized around violence, can help with public issues in statistically significant ways, and do it for cheap. PSR's budget is $12.6 million/year, compared to Portland police getting $249 million in 2023... and yet PSR by itself has reduced police dispatches by 3.2%, reduced fire department dispatches by 3.2%, dramatically cut down on the number of people taken to the hospital as a result of calls, and gets wildly positive reviews from both the general public and the people they respond to, who consider them extremely trustworthy compared to the police.
- ianburrell 4y ago
  There are two problems in Portland that could benefit from focused non-police groups. I dont know if city could organize them or if police would allow them. There has been big jump in murders since pandemic, mostly gang violence. Other cities have had success engaging with gang members and breaking the cycle of violence. Teams with trusted community members and social workers might have some success. Police probably wouldn’t work unlike cities where they are more trusted. Not sure if group should work with police to solve murder or if that hurt their position. The other place would theft task force, probably inside police but staffed by non-officers. Taking reports would be sufficient but would be better if they could investigate and make cases, No need for armed police except for arrests.
  - crooked-v 4y ago
    On that second part, I think that Portland, like many other cities, would benefit tremendously if there was a legally empowered but non-police group that existed for after-the-fact fact-finding and record-keeping responses to crimes that have already occurred. Currently if a theft or robbery happens here, the police pretty much don't give a shit and will only even record it if you hassle them at length about it.

thelock85 4y ago

Raheem.ai is building the PATCH network as an alternative dispatch system for community crisis responders to show up instead of having to call the police for non-criminal situations. They started with trying to build better complaint systems to support data-driven reform but pivoted toward building an alternative after failing to get buy-in from civic institutions.

rz2k 4y ago

I remember reading Luigi Barzini claim that competition between the Carabinieri and Polizia was intended to limit coordinated corruption. In practice the Guardia di Finanza has been especially important in many corruption cases in Italy. I understood the complaints that a lack of cooperation between law enforcement agencies was instrumental to 9/11, but even at the time putting everything under the Department of Homeland Security sounded like a recipe for a deterioration in attitudes among federal law enforcement agencies, and like it would eventually replicate the problems that come out of police and sheriff unions. I agree that parallel law enforcement that has a reinforced focus on serving the public, and that has minimal contact with rot-inducing organizations is an excellent idea, and may be the only way to affect change without having to bear the increased incidence of work slowdowns suspected in many cities.