5 ms·

how exactly? looking at american unions I dont see a single effective at "stifling CEOs from becoming rich". american automakers produce one of the low qualit

by slt2021 4y ago

how exactly? looking at american unions I dont see a single effective at "stifling CEOs from becoming rich". american automakers produce one of the low quality cars, and heavy lobbying from lawmakers is the only thing that keeps them afloat.

bhouston 4y ago
> how exactly? looking at american unions I dont see a single effective at "stifling CEOs from becoming rich". You removed a major conditional. I do not care if the CEOs become rich, the dream of getting rich via business success is why capitalism works, what I care about is if they do it by underpaying their employees because of a power differential.
Loughla 4y ago
I really want to break your argument down, so you can maybe see how it doesn't really argue in any sort of way for what you think it does, and doesn't really make sense. I'm not trying to be hateful, but I really think you might benefit from seeing this from an outside perspective. Argument: I do not see a single [union] effective at "Stifling CEO's from becoming rich". 1st Proof: American Automakers produce low quality cars. 2nd Proof: The only thing keeping them in business is lobbying from American Lawmakers. Your proof has nothing to do with your argument. At all. They're not related. They're also very subjective and impossible to actually prove. They're not proof; they're opinion. A more effective argument would be: Proof: The largest Union employers are x, y, z, and their CEO's make $x, $y, $z.
- slt2021 4y ago
  you are right, but the argument itself is flawed in the first place. CEOs are not the rich class, they are elite but they are employees. Plenty of CEOs get fired for doing bad job, or get softly pushed out. Argument that labor union keep CEOs from getting rich is absurd because CEOs are part of labor force. it is shareholders who get rich by squeezing profit, so I dont get why bring up CEOs. A CEO maybe get paid $10 mln a year. But shareholders get dividends/buybacks in order of hundreds of mils/blns My argument was that labor unions lead to piss poor quality due to mediocrity (example: US automakers). the japanese automakers have factories in the US and produce much higher quality cars without labor unions. How come???
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > CEOs are not the rich class, they are elite but they are employees. While this is sometimes true, the executive status class overlaps significantly with the haut bourgeois economic class (and most of the rest of the executive status class is in the petit bourgeois economic class; there are probably working class “CEOs” somewhere, but they are very much not the norm), and very typically they are specifically significant holders of capital in the firm of which they are CEOs. CEOS are not just employees, and their relationship to either the firms they control or the economy more generally are not very much like those of regular employees.
    - slt2021 4y ago
      huh? if we talking about tech layoffs and tech employees needing union - pls explain how Satya Nadella or Sundar are elites? they became CEOs just from being immigrant students. Started as engineers, and slowly rose through ranks. tech is more merit based, compared to traditional boomer's industries. I dont see how CEOs in tech are part of elite, while they are simply hired managers. You do your job well - you can become ceo one day
      - njbooher 4y ago
        Employees typically depend on their salaries to pay for necessary living expenses. If they lose their job, they need to get another one, or they'll eventually go broke. Any CEO making $10M/yr would only need to work for a year before they could retire and live comfortably the rest of their life without ever touching the principal. Layoffs affect these groups differently.
  - AntoPaz 4y ago
    Interestingly many engineers in the German car industry (often seen as high quality), e.g. at Audi or BMW and other large non-automotive enterprises like Siemens work under IG Metall union contracts and the companies do rather well.
    - nocoolnametom 4y ago
xtracto 4y ago
Mexico has some strong unions, one of them is the SINDICATO NACIONAL DE TRABAJADORES DE LA INDUSTRIA. AUTOMOTRIZ (auto maker/manufactring union). Still, there are lots of cars manufactured in Mexico which are of quite high quality[1]: Audi Q5 BMW Serie 3 BMW Serie 2 coupé Honda HR-V Hyundai Accent Infiniti QX50 Infiniti QX55 Jeep Compass KIA Rio KIA Forte Mazda CX-30 Mazda2 Mazda3 Mercedes-Benz GLB Nissan Kicks Nissan Versa Nissan NP300 Nissan Sentra Nissan March Nissan NV 200 Cargo Toyota Tacoma VW Tiguan VW Taos VW Jetta There is indeed a stigma that American cars (Ford, GM, Chevrolet) are trash, but I think that has more to do with a company policy, more than with Unions and manufacturing employees. [1] https://www.motorpasion.com.mx/industria/autos-produccion-mexico-2022 https://www.motorpasion.com.mx/industria/autos-produccion-me...
- slt2021 4y ago
  with all due respect to Mexican workers - in Mexico most OEMs do mostly assembly of ready made parts. Engines, tranny, suspension parts are manufactured in US/Europe/Japan and simply shipped to Mexico for assembly due to NAFTA favorable trade agreement and cheaper labor for simple assembly
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

bhouston 4y ago

> how exactly? looking at american unions I dont see a single effective at "stifling CEOs from becoming rich". You removed a major conditional. I do not care if the CEOs become rich, the dream of getting rich via business success is why capitalism works, what I care about is if they do it by underpaying their employees because of a power differential.

Loughla 4y ago

I really want to break your argument down, so you can maybe see how it doesn't really argue in any sort of way for what you think it does, and doesn't really make sense. I'm not trying to be hateful, but I really think you might benefit from seeing this from an outside perspective. Argument: I do not see a single [union] effective at "Stifling CEO's from becoming rich". 1st Proof: American Automakers produce low quality cars. 2nd Proof: The only thing keeping them in business is lobbying from American Lawmakers. Your proof has nothing to do with your argument. At all. They're not related. They're also very subjective and impossible to actually prove. They're not proof; they're opinion. A more effective argument would be: Proof: The largest Union employers are x, y, z, and their CEO's make $x, $y, $z.

slt2021 4y ago
you are right, but the argument itself is flawed in the first place. CEOs are not the rich class, they are elite but they are employees. Plenty of CEOs get fired for doing bad job, or get softly pushed out. Argument that labor union keep CEOs from getting rich is absurd because CEOs are part of labor force. it is shareholders who get rich by squeezing profit, so I dont get why bring up CEOs. A CEO maybe get paid $10 mln a year. But shareholders get dividends/buybacks in order of hundreds of mils/blns My argument was that labor unions lead to piss poor quality due to mediocrity (example: US automakers). the japanese automakers have factories in the US and produce much higher quality cars without labor unions. How come???
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > CEOs are not the rich class, they are elite but they are employees. While this is sometimes true, the executive status class overlaps significantly with the haut bourgeois economic class (and most of the rest of the executive status class is in the petit bourgeois economic class; there are probably working class “CEOs” somewhere, but they are very much not the norm), and very typically they are specifically significant holders of capital in the firm of which they are CEOs. CEOS are not just employees, and their relationship to either the firms they control or the economy more generally are not very much like those of regular employees.
  - slt2021 4y ago
    huh? if we talking about tech layoffs and tech employees needing union - pls explain how Satya Nadella or Sundar are elites? they became CEOs just from being immigrant students. Started as engineers, and slowly rose through ranks. tech is more merit based, compared to traditional boomer's industries. I dont see how CEOs in tech are part of elite, while they are simply hired managers. You do your job well - you can become ceo one day
    - njbooher 4y ago
      Employees typically depend on their salaries to pay for necessary living expenses. If they lose their job, they need to get another one, or they'll eventually go broke. Any CEO making $10M/yr would only need to work for a year before they could retire and live comfortably the rest of their life without ever touching the principal. Layoffs affect these groups differently.
- AntoPaz 4y ago
  Interestingly many engineers in the German car industry (often seen as high quality), e.g. at Audi or BMW and other large non-automotive enterprises like Siemens work under IG Metall union contracts and the companies do rather well.
  - nocoolnametom 4y ago

xtracto 4y ago

Mexico has some strong unions, one of them is the SINDICATO NACIONAL DE TRABAJADORES DE LA INDUSTRIA. AUTOMOTRIZ (auto maker/manufactring union). Still, there are lots of cars manufactured in Mexico which are of quite high quality[1]: Audi Q5 BMW Serie 3 BMW Serie 2 coupé Honda HR-V Hyundai Accent Infiniti QX50 Infiniti QX55 Jeep Compass KIA Rio KIA Forte Mazda CX-30 Mazda2 Mazda3 Mercedes-Benz GLB Nissan Kicks Nissan Versa Nissan NP300 Nissan Sentra Nissan March Nissan NV 200 Cargo Toyota Tacoma VW Tiguan VW Taos VW Jetta There is indeed a stigma that American cars (Ford, GM, Chevrolet) are trash, but I think that has more to do with a company policy, more than with Unions and manufacturing employees. [1] https://www.motorpasion.com.mx/industria/autos-produccion-mexico-2022 https://www.motorpasion.com.mx/industria/autos-produccion-me...

slt2021 4y ago
with all due respect to Mexican workers - in Mexico most OEMs do mostly assembly of ready made parts. Engines, tranny, suspension parts are manufactured in US/Europe/Japan and simply shipped to Mexico for assembly due to NAFTA favorable trade agreement and cheaper labor for simple assembly

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]