10 ms·

Apology to 37signals

152 points by allangrant 15y ago

FredBrach 15y ago
It seems the blog is completely down.
- latchkey 15y ago
  Maybe that is the apology.
  - FredBrach 15y ago
    No I've managed to read it a while ago
- suking 15y ago
  They must have got a hold of 37's backend and forgot to change the database password to their own!
- pkrefta 15y ago
  Look for Google Cache link few comments up.
allangrant 15y ago
The actual apology: Recently we launched a site with several pages copied from 37signals' Highrise. We did more than take inspiration from their design - we actually used html & css code, and hotlinked to images on their site. We apologize to David and 37signals for ripping off their work. It was stupid, lazy, and disrespectful of their creative efforts. It's particularly painful for us to have done this to 37signals because they are big heroes of ours. We just hope they will accept our apologies.
- cilurnum 15y ago
  One wonders how this ever happened and why on Earth they didn't have HTML and front-end skills enough to do their own presentation. The fact that their blog is now down with a database error does not exactly inspire much confidence.
  - RandallBrown 15y ago
    They're sitting around and one of them reads the 37 signals blog post about A/B testing and conversion rates. He says "Dude, do you think their landing page will actually convert better than our current one?" "I don't know, lets try it." So one of them snags the source from Highrise and changes some images around. I'm sure he previewed it, it looked fine and he published it. He probably forgot to change out the button images because they looked fine. Who knows if this is how it happened, but it really seems like it could have been an honest (but definitely pretty stupid) mistake.
    - cilurnum 15y ago
      Any developer with any intelligence or skill doesn't do that. You don't just 'publish' something. As a developer there is no way I can imagine this being done innocently because it is something that is always at the forefront of your mind.
      - ericd 15y ago
        Are you an entrepreneur? If you are, and you've had any success, I'm sure you've "just published" something along the way. It's actually a rather important skill. Not that you should copy and paste something to try it out - you definitely shouldn't - but quick and dirty trial implementations are fairly common. Edit: Not sure why this is getting downvoted, anyone care to explain? Action in startups is not always deliberate.
        Skywing 15y ago
        perhaps because of the condescending tone of your "and youve had any success" sentence.
        ericd 15y ago
        Ah thanks. Rereading that, I can see what you mean. I mostly said that to caveat that there are many ways to do entrepreneurship badly, and most of the successful paths involve some amount of shooting from the hip.
- sloppy_startup 15y ago
  this is an example of the kind of sloppy stuff that happens when an angel investor with a big mouth and no taste puts money into 500 startups. you can't expect the best folks are gonna work with c-rate investors. cut rate investors = cut rate entrepreneurs. shame on this company for their blatant theft.
  - davemc500hats 15y ago
    thanks. think you meant "when an angel investor with a big mouth and no taste like 500 Startups puts money into..." regardless, we don't shy away from helping our founders, even should they go astray. not proud right now, but we hope to be helpful where possible. live & learn.
    - cilurnum 15y ago
      None of that post makes any grammatical sense. This is beyond the pale and it is not a case of 'live and learn'. Every single one of us as developers have taken the page layouts of others, even looked at their code and then coded something ourselves based around it. What you don't do is list layout code straight and insert your own images and URLs. I take it you're investing enough to employ people with HTML, CSS and front-end skills? Will you throw some funding at me please?
    - abbasmehdi 15y ago
      Dave, I wanted to tell you that I think the way you were handling the situation with DHH on Twitter was great! I saw a video on YouTube titled "the last lecture" a while back, and the biggest takeaway for me was how the guy defined an apology: Proper apologies have three parts: 1) What I did was wrong. 2) I’m sorry that I hurt you. 3) How do I make it better? It’s the third part that people tend to forget…. Apologize when you screw up and focus on other people, not on yourself. This has stuck with me and I noticed you were following on it very well, patiently and with humbleness.
      - anon808 15y ago
        The most import part of that apology formula is missing, actually meaning it. Also if the answer to #3 is obvious (ie stop doing what your apologizing for) then one shouldn't have to ask.
- adamtmca 15y ago
  How old are you guys? Not making a judgement, genuinely just wondering.
  - geoffreydgraham 15y ago
    I think they're in their mid-20s. They screwed up, apologized, asked how they could make it right, got crucified some more, and now have fully prostrated themselves before DHH and the court of public opinion. It's a horrible experience for them, and I reckon they've learned something. One of the lessons they've likely learned is that people are perfectly cool with successful, experienced entrepreneurs casting endless screeds against inexperienced folks who should have known better but didn't. Wonder if they'll have a chance to apply that lesson when/if they become successful themselves. Given their penitence, a little mercy is in order.
- cilurnum 15y ago
  "and hotlinked to images on their site." Jesus...............
  - LearnYouALisp 15y ago
    It boggles the mind!
- ainsleyb 15y ago
  I have multiple responses to multiple comments on this thread, so I'm going to continue here. For full disclosure, I'm a young entrepreneur (<25), run a company that was started a few months after curebit (my cofounder applied and interviewed for the same YC class with a different idea), have raised pretty close to what curebit has raised, and am also a 500startups-funded company. I'd just like to take a minute to hope that a couple of screw ups by others won't put companies like ours at a disadvantage. It makes me sad to think that "how old are you guys" is one of the first questions someone would ask, since I'm not sure physical age has anything to do with how people react to different situations. I'd sure like to think that if I screwed up people would chalk it up to me being me and not my generation. I also hope people realize the big mouth investor with no taste (especially in what he wears ;) isn't the only person vetting 500startup companies. He has a whole investment team. Yes, Dave does pick a lot of the 500s companies himself (he was our biggest advocate), but the entire 500s team has a say. I also think you're overlooking the fact that curebit was also supported by YCombinator (and Dave has a lot of respect for PG's team and the companies they accept). I don't condone what curebit did (far from it). I am close to positive someone at YC would have at least helped hash out ideas for design (and 500s' mantra is design, data, distribution), and, Dave has always said: running lean doesn't mean running cheap. But I hope that what one company does doesn't ruin it for the rest of us.
  - adamtmca 15y ago
    I was the one who asked their ages. I'm 22. I was just wondering. I knew that if I just asked "how old are you?" it would come off as a snarky comment on the situation. That's why I also included "Not making a judgement, genuinely just wondering." While I wasn't trying to tie age to the issue at hand, I would have to disagree with your assertion that physical age doesn't have anything to do with how people react to different situations. Maybe experience is the real driver but obviously that is closely related to age. Either way that's neither here nor there. As for the rest of your comment, I'm not totally clear on what you were trying to get across or who you were responding to but it still doesn't seem like it deserved to be down voted.
sachingulaya 15y ago
You should probably edit the title to "Apology to 37signals, Kinoma, and LaunchBit" Edit: The LaunchBit image is a stock photo. I apologize.
- ceejayoz 15y ago
  The LaunchBit one is particularly egregious. http://yfrog.com/odx67yoj http://yfrog.com/odx67yoj
  - kristofferR 15y ago
    Nope, it's an iStockPhoto illustration. http://www.istockphoto.com/stock-illustration-9935405-retro-rocket-ship-illustration.php http://www.istockphoto.com/stock-illustration-9935405-retro-... Both Launchbit and ShareBooster is breaking the iStockPhoto TOS by using it in their logo though.
    - ceejayoz 15y ago
      Thanks for the correction!
    - designNERD 15y ago
      Plus its pretty sloppy to use a stock illustration as a logo. I call foul on both.
  - davemc500hats 15y ago
    actually, both LaunchBit and Curebit got the logo from istockphotos. both are in process of changing I believe.
    - hippo33 15y ago
      Founder of LaunchBit here. That's right. We bought the right to use the rocketship off iStockPhoto. It's fair game for anyone to purchase it as well.
Kique 15y ago
"Recently we launched a site with several pages copied from 37signals’ Highrise. We did more than take inspiration from their design – we actually used html & css code, and hotlinked to images on their site. We apologize to David and 37signals for ripping off their work. It was stupid, lazy, and disrespectful of their creative efforts. It’s particularly painful for us to have done this to 37signals because they are big heroes of ours. We just hope they will accept our apologies." from Google cache http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&safe=off&site=webhp&source=hp&q=cache%3Ablog.curebit.com&pbx=1&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.,cf.osb&fp=550374fd478a51e0&biw=1218&bih=715&ix=sea&ion=1&ix=sea&ion=1 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?sclient=psy-ab&...
pg_bot 15y ago
The blog is down, I am getting "error establishing a database connection"
chris123 15y ago
Pretty good apology Dave McClure wrote for them.
- Animus7 15y ago
  I know sarcasm when I see it, but judging from the earlier exchange this would actually not be surprising.
  - designNERD 15y ago
    Agreed. Based on Dave's response on twitter and the exchange between Allan and DHH, I believe Dave cracked the whip on them. This apology doesn't have the same tone.
jbrowning 15y ago
The copying seems to go deeper than just an experimental A/B test. Compare: http://highrisehq.com/signup http://highrisehq.com/signup with the top half of http://www.curebit.com/pricing http://www.curebit.com/pricing Edit: Replaced Basecamp signup page with Highrise signup page.
- il 15y ago
  Please. Hundreds of startups use a 37signals-inspired pricing page with 3 plans and the middle "most popular option". Now you're just going on a witch hunt.
  - cilurnum 15y ago
    It's a little more than skin deep.
  - jbrowning 15y ago
    I would say that the "Choose Plan" buttons are a little more than "inspiration". In fact, they're exact copies: http://imgur.com/Foah7 http://imgur.com/Foah7
  - iamjustlooking 15y ago
    When does it cross the line from inspired to copied? The HTML markup for the 3 panel middle thing is almost identical. The Choose Plan buttons are pixel for pixel identical according to imagemagick compare. Was the other page just inspired also?
  - dedene 15y ago
    I agree.. BUT: i.e. the "Choose plans" buttons are just copied without any change from the 37Signals signup page. Compare http://highrisehq.com/images/btn_chooseplan_small.png http://highrisehq.com/images/btn_chooseplan_small.png with http://www.curebit.com/images/icons/choose_btn_small.png?1327717568 http://www.curebit.com/images/icons/choose_btn_small.png?132...
  - ghshephard 15y ago
    You can't look at the two pages, side-by side and say that curebits was "inspired" - it's blatant copying, and poorly done. Look at all the elements that were basically cut & pasted: o FREE "On all Accounts" up top. o Thicker border on center rectangle o Offset rectangle in center o Black / Same shade of blue for the Name, description of price. Interesting to note, there was a (successful in my book) attempt at original design by using Red/Orange instead of Black for the price. o "Choose Plan" - Same name, positioning - and bit-for bit identical. o "Cancel Anytime" Immediately above three options o Statement of "Confidence" (Trusted vs Safe Secure) o Quoted endorsement below the statement of confidence. It's not illegal, or even particularly immoral - what it is is shady, and unprofessional behavior by anybody who wanted to be able to work as a well-regarded designer. Whoever did that work didn't have a lot of self respect as a designer - and, based on the professional designers that I know - probably didn't consider themselves to be first and foremost a designer. Probably an engineer who had to slap some UI elements onto their website. If all you are trying to do is bottom-feed and make $$$, (Think about how Zynga, or Samsung build many of their products) - then this is actually a pretty good approach - just copy what has worked for others. Real world story - when Netscape finally gave up the ghost as a software company and Mike Homer came up on top, and convinced Jim Barkdsale that our future was as a "Portal" - Jim Barksdale, our Beloved and incredibly well regarded CEO, came out at an all hands, spelled it out to the company, and said "The competition is now the portals - and that's something that we can go out and copy." - he used that word, "copy". Within a week, we had _entire walls_ covered with plotted printouts (remember those?) of Yahoo's Portal, and, underneath those plotted printouts - element by element replicas depicting Netscape.com. You could almost overlay them. It was successful. Netscape sold for $4 Billion to AOL ($10 Billion on the last day of trading) - but I can guarantee you that none of those designers were particularly proud of the work they where doing, and hopefully didn't put it in their portfolio.
auxbuss 15y ago
Clicking the link (to http://blog.curebit.com/ http://blog.curebit.com/) I'm getting 'Error establishing a database connection'.
jsavimbi 15y ago
Don't you have a Google+ account you could've posted it to instead of trying to host it in your own? Are you seriously trying to micro-manage your damage control this way? I thought they vetted these people or something and would have a damage control recipe in place after the AirBnB debacle last year.
- parfe 15y ago
  Are you taking issue with a company posting an apology on their own website? I'm not sure how that qualifies as micro-managing.
  - jsavimbi 15y ago
    I'm shaking my head in disbelief, not really taking issue with anything at this point. Either this guy is trying his damnedest to minimize fallout, unserstandably yet so very amateurish, or he's really that clueless and incompetent.
n9com 15y ago
Looks like they didn't spend their $1.2m on getting a decent web server either - website down.
JackWebbHeller 15y ago
The whole debate is frankly embarrassing for both sides... Of course, admittedly more so for Curebit - but I can't be the only one who thinks that DHH's cocky attitude, publicly tweeting things like "Fucking scumbags", is just embarrassing when he is the main face of a friendly and professional company like 37Signals...?
- zerostar07 15y ago
  You 're not the only one. I would even call it an understandable mistake for someone who just launched. Telling them to go get some ethics, calling them indecent and scumbags is not the right response. You point their wrongdoings, and let others come to those conclusions, esp. when the accused shows some signs of repent. For comparison, when the Oatmeal found his comics stolen, here's how he responded: http://theoatmeal.com/blog/funnyjunk http://theoatmeal.com/blog/funnyjunk PS. i'm not defending anyone, but as an outsider i found the response was over the top and allangrant didn't call any names
  - jsavimbi 15y ago
    Are you under the assumption that these are fresh-faced kids out of school who don't know how to dress themselves, let alone "launch" a web app? You might want to go and study some LinkedIn profiles before apologizing for these guys. And as far is DHH is concerned, why would you want to steal from him in the first place. He gave his best work away for free. I'm no fan but I believe he's entitled to call these people out. In whatever tone he deems appropriate. Get used to it if you think following Curebit's steps is the way to go. It's a rough world out there. Yet Stallman is coddled every time he calls someone "evil" and wishes them dead. Odd that.
    - route66 15y ago
      > why would you want to steal from him in the first place Read your own answer here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3453379 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3453379
      - 15y ago
alexobenauer 15y ago
Site down; see cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7NYBhgZ8-gkJ:blog.curebit.com/+http://blog.curebit.com/&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7NYBhgZ...
Vaanir 15y ago
Maybe it's times like these where this bookmarklet is useful: javascript:void((function(){var a=location.href.replace(/^http%5C:%5C/%5C/(.*)$/,'$1');location.href='http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:+escape(a);})() http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:+escape(a);})())
mindslight 15y ago
And where's the apology from 37signals, venturebeat, and the submitters for helping to turn HN into TMZ?
sloppy_startup 15y ago
this is an example of the kind of sloppy stuff that happens when an angel investor with a big mouth and no taste puts money into 500 startups. you can't expect the best folks are gonna work with c-rate investors. cut rate investors = cut rate entrepreneurs. shame on this company for their blatant theft.
Sargis 15y ago
Don't you think this is akin to piracy? Why are people so outraged about someone using a simple HTML page (or parts of it) without permission when illegally obtaining and using content such as movies or music is a daily occurrence, but you don't see people making a big fuss about that. I'm not saying what he did was right as it obviously isn't, but making such an outrage about this seems a little bit over the top, IMO.
romain_g 15y ago
No matter how people on both sides react, they are all at the very least decently smart persons and an acceptable apology shouldn't be only a place for redemption. I can't imagine people at Curebit assuming that the ripoff wouldn't be discovered. So why did they do that?
petercooper 15y ago
I'm sure I've seen the design of that "Error establishing a database connection" page somewhere before..
manojlds 15y ago
The best way to break a site is to have it come on the front page of Hacker News!
curiousfiddler 15y ago
Man! Curebit is definitely very wrong, but all those abuses just don't make a pretty read on my twitter feed. I am gonna unfollow DHH. I respect him a lot for what he's achieved, but all that profanity leaves a very very bad taste. Personal learning: never abuse. Those words mean nasty things.
- curiousfiddler 15y ago
  Don't understand the downvotes at all... Curebit's case sets a very ugly example. Profanity in the same sense sets a very ugly example for younger minds, especially when coming from such a well respected entrepreneur.
shareme 15y ago
Unfortunately, blog author did not get the lesson.. 37Signals was ONLY ONE-OF_SITES that Cutebit stole from.. Thy have clear habit of doing so
- auxbuss 15y ago
  Please cite.
  - getsat 15y ago
    http://www.curebit.com http://www.curebit.com <-> http://kinoma.com http://kinoma.com And more copying from 37Signals: http://twitter.com/#!/dhh/status/163295779593785345 http://twitter.com/#!/dhh/status/163295779593785345 http://twitter.com/#!/dhh/status/163298220322209792 http://twitter.com/#!/dhh/status/163298220322209792
    - papalalu 15y ago
      the kinoma link is much more of the accepted face of imitation, it just rubs a little after the previous issues.
    - jeff18 15y ago
      The Sharebooster logo is actually stock art: https://twitter.com/#!/launchbit/status/163328570364669952 https://twitter.com/#!/launchbit/status/163328570364669952
      - moe 15y ago
        And it's a pure coincidence that a company called "curebit" chooses the exact same logo stock-art as one called "launchbit"
        untog 15y ago
        Well there's an interesting debate, there. Launchbit bought a stock image. So even if Curebit saw the logo through Launchbit, is there a reason why they can't buy it too? I imagine the creator of the stock image wouldn't mind the extra money. I think that using a stock image for your logo is probably unwise for exactly this reason.
tbsdy 15y ago
Database connection error...
guynamedloren 15y ago
I hope they're A/B testing their apologies, because that one sucked.
dkrich 15y ago
The thing that amazes me most about this whole debacle is how completely unnecessary it was. Web designers are popping up everywhere like fucking mushrooms, and these guys (presumably pretty intelligent) chose to just steal a design. Developing a nice-looking design is the easiest part of a startup. Generating the idea, interest, and funding is what stalls 98% of them. They had all that, but screwed up on the most doable aspect of the company. That alone greatly calls into question the judgment of the founders (not to mention the moral implications).
- sunchild 15y ago
  For me, the really objectionable part isn't the "thievery", it's the sloppiness of it. Anyone with half a clue knows that if you're copying HTML:(a) you'd better redact any references to the original source, (b) you ought to change the class names, and (c) you sure as shit better not link to resources on the owner's servers. After all, most HTML/CSS is borderline protectable under copyright in the first place. P.S. If you're copy/pasting HTML/CSS, you're pretty terrible at web design. Anyone with even the slightest facility in web design could whip up a clone of the 37Signals landing page in an evening without doing more than sneaking a peek at the source.
- pbreit 15y ago
  That's why the "accident" explanation is somewhat plausible, imo.
- untog 15y ago
  Developing a nice-looking design is the easiest part of a startup. Yes and no. They didn't choose the design because it looked nice, they chose it because it had already been A/B tested as more effective (admittedly, for a product other than their own, but still). As someone who has created nice designs, and as someone that has also extensively multivariant tested designs to see which one gets a 1% boost in clickthrough... the 'nice' part is just the tip of the iceberg. To clarify: not defending what they did. Just suggesting what I think their reasoning was.
- ahoyhere 15y ago
  It really reminded me of the homeschooling family in some small town who named their kid "Hitler" and then tried to sue the local bakery who refused to put his name on a cake. They really seemed to think the whole US would get behind them as a "free speech" movement. If you're gonna name your kid something horrible, that's one thing. But if you actually think people are going to support you for it? A whole nother kettle of fish entirely. The scariest people are people who not only do wrong, but who don't have the good sense to realize how others will react to it. They either entirely lack "theory of mind," or it's so out of touch with reality as to be utterly useless. Whenever you come across people like that in life/business, I've found that it's smart to run as fast as possible the other way.
pnmahoney 15y ago
I don't think anyone has a final answer, but really _how close_ do designs have to be so as to lack integrity? (assuming that they hadn't straight up lifted the CSS, images, button etc... which they did, which is clearly wrong.) Ex: DHH says http://elance.com http://elance.com is inspiration, not theft. Ok. Ex 2: A more difficult edge is http://coursekit.com http://coursekit.com I instantly recalled their design after seeing this scandal, although I'd initially taken note of it for its effectiveness. Their similarity to basecamp is on the front page only, and no assets stolen. (full disclosure: competitor, vaguely, for a hackathon-started education product I'm working on.) Like, we can think up a MILLION edge cases. That's not the point. I'm really, really curious to hear what you guys think the difference IS. and please, please, PLEASE don't respond to this with vitriol on other side. if you think there are problems happening here in the way we treat design, and how ppl react, just DON'T add to it in that way. EDIT: edited to match repost, because of downvote(?) here
- pnmahoney 15y ago
  I guess downvote-burying is a pretty good way to stimulate discussion, huh? I don't know if I should interpret it as you agreeing with DHH or not.
atacrawl 15y ago
To everyone who thinks DHH and 37signals overreacted to this, keep in mind that the IA/UI paradigm introduced in Basecamp has been aped by many startups in their web apps with nary a whiff of public complaint. It's one thing to copy the design of a marketing page (which is pretty weak), but to serve assets from that company's servers? Such an action is so idiotic and pathetic, that it's absurd. It's completely inexcusable and deserves to be called out whenever it happens.
- earbitscom 15y ago
  I've never seen a grown man act the way DHH did. Call it out, but do it with some professionalism.
  - ahoyhere 15y ago
    You've never seen a grown man use strong language or call somebody a fucking something-something? Guess you've never read Mark Twain, or watched George Carlin, or any comic, ever, except maybe that guy from Full House who specializes in "clean comedy." Or been to a bar. Or watched a sports game. Or hung out with people who are passionate. Please, can the disingenuous hyperbole. Nobody is buying it. Most importantly, not everyone has to buy into your idea of "professionalism." Thank god.
    - joemoon 15y ago
      > except maybe that guy from Full House who specializes in "clean comedy." Wait, was this a subtle joke? Bob Saget's humor is very vulgar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctHArXFxu9A&feature=player_detailpage#t=126s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctHArXFxu9A&feature=playe... Not my cup of tea, but there it is.
      - ahoyhere 15y ago
        Bob Saget does vulgar comedy?? There goes my childhood. No, I meant Dave whatshisface.
    - 15y ago
joshontheweb 15y ago
Inexcusable but not a bad move in the end. This will all settle and be forgotten except that everyone will remember their name. Unethical and unwitting but a good publicity stunt nonetheless.
deleted 15y ago
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trotsky 15y ago
I wonder how the community reconciles so many posters being up in arms about this event while frequently promoting stories from torrent freak and generally dismissing the belief that much harm comes from copyright infringement. Is it different when someone you know or respect is the injured party?
- spullara 15y ago
  I think people find it more offensive if 1) you take credit for the work and 2) you make money by using it. But you're right, there must be some internal mental model that allows them to be so obviously different.
  - mikeash 15y ago
    Yes, precisely. One case is copyright infringement for personal use, one is copyright infringement and misattribution for commercial use. Compare e.g. Bob downloading "The Dark Knight" to watch it versus Bob selling copies of "The Dark Bob, by Bob" which is actually just TDK with a different label slapped on it. I think a lot of people would find the latter to be much more wrong.
- code177 15y ago
  Whilst 37signals does use this bit of creative IP to generate revenue, the page itself isn't actually the product - so copying it creates neither a reduced demand for the page itself or 37signals' services, nor does it impact their bottom-line in any obvious way (curebit and 37signals aren't in the same product-space). Although the page itself is defensible IP for 37signals, the chances of them taking legal action on it (see above) is so remotely slim that it puts this whole thing into the realm of creative and professional courtesy rather than copyright infringement. It's more like a stranger coming into the town saloon, getting drunk, and spilling his beer on the local bad-ass.
humbyvaldes 15y ago
Startup Metrics for Pirates: AARRR! and steal peoples shit lol
soapdog 15y ago
Anyone has a friendly link to a summary of what happened?
gumbo 15y ago
I stumble upon stolen graphics so much time, when a company is not able to create an original landing page, how one can expect that company to create something more complex. This is not to say curebit won't succeed, but as one said "we are in a hard world" and people are looking where you succeed but also where you fail. I hope this mistake will be the last one until the go bigger otherwise i'm afraid the won't be forgiven one more time.
gumbo 15y ago
I think DHH did it the wrong way, it is such an arrogant reaction. it is not like Curebit is a concurrent or something like that so they could have just sent an email asking remove the elements. That's been said, but if this embarrassing event help someone to never ever steal elements again then it's is a goo thing.
- gumbo 15y ago
  Just went through the whole thread on twitter, and now i see that it is #curebit that tried to dig their own grave. Nevertheless let learn the lessons and move forward, inspire don't steal.
anon22342 15y ago
Can someone explain why this is such a big deal? Genuinely curious. It seems the HN hivemind has a much stronger response to someone stealing a web designer's work vs, say stealing a Hollywood studio's work and hiding behind DMCA safe harbor.
- DarkShikari 15y ago
  Because they have higher standards for themselves (HN startups) than for movie pirates?
deleted 15y ago
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eduardordm 15y ago
Learned: - Some people will actually steal your CHECK icons - Over-bashing a stealer will not make you look nice - Immediatism never seem to work on your side
crikli 15y ago
Humility on either side would have gone a long way.
Encryptor 15y ago
The site blog.curebit.com is down. Here's the cached version: "Apology to 37signals Posted on January 28, 2012 by Allan Grant Recently we launched a site with several pages copied from 37signals’ Highrise. We did more than take inspiration from their design – we actually used html & css code, and hotlinked to images on their site. We apologize to David and 37signals for ripping off their work. It was stupid, lazy, and disrespectful of their creative efforts. It’s particularly painful for us to have done this to 37signals because they are big heroes of ours. We just hope they will accept our apologies."
Hominem 15y ago
I almost feel bad for these guys but I understand why DHH was so pissed. Getting inspiration or even straight up stealing the HTLM and CSS is one thing, but referencing assets on 37signals servers is beyond the pale as 37signals is paying money to serve those assets. This happened to a company I worked for, a company not only ganked our website but used pictures of our offices and staff we had on our about us page!
- jakejake 15y ago
  I've had this happen and they were actually using a sizable amount of bandwidth. The great thing about it, though, is that you can move your originals and change the hot linked images to something else. Like a message to their customers, gross pictures, etc. it can be a hilarious opportunity to mess with somebody who is stealing your stuff!
aacook 15y ago
I understand they want to apologize quickly, but to me the post is so short that it comes off as not genuine. Even the title "Apology to 37signals" seems like they just don't really care. All that said, it must suck to be in this position.
ddw 15y ago
Copying someone's layout, jacking a logo and mentioning A/B testing are seriously all it takes to get millions of funding??? I'm on the next flight out to the Valley!
jetsnoc 15y ago
I think @dhh wasted a great opportunity to be a leader and a mentor. I think he should have asked allengrant to rise to the occasion. Instead he was incredibly rude and shared his contempt publicly! It all seems so incongruent to me. On one side of the coin, 37s wants to share their results openly but on the other using the idea they shared makes him "a fucking scumbag." I understand there is a copyright violation involved. However, I suspected 37s would have been more... tactful. Unfortunately, this is the second time 37signals has disappointed me in the last few weeks. As a customer, they violated my sense of privacy and almost as worse one of their partners is a total hot-head. Personally, and this is only my opinion based on no fact...In the back of my mind I am thinking "what would a hot-head that does not respect my companies privacy do with our information?!" To think I used to look up to them!
denysonique 15y ago
Lean startup
eightysteele 15y ago
Minor nit, but what stuck me most about the apology was that Allan didn't include a link to http://37signals.com http://37signals.com.
mattaus 15y ago
Worst apology ever!
jaimoepelle 15y ago
Has anyone heard from 37? Curebit is good tech that works, they have been more than fair in the few dealings I have had the privilege to work with them on. They, like most companies constantly change... how many logos did Google have. Rather than an indictment on them I see it as on the community. More help, more share, less complaining about things that really don't matter. In today's world product matters, template design is secondary to the many things they are doing daily to make a business. and 37 is the one company that goes out of their way to share what works and encourages startups to use their advice. So curebit made yet another change to their homepage...who cares save the few who tear down cause they cant build up. Allan, u created a great product, u made ur clients more money and are positioning yourself to lead a great new company. Commended u are, and your success will have nothing to do with the design of your homepage....if it were that easy.
provokeme 15y ago
Curebit who? Not anymore. Well played.
ssharp 15y ago
It's nice that they apologized, but aside from the ethics behind what they did, I think I'd be extremely weary of using Curebit. If they are lazy enough to directly copy HTML/CSS and not even go through the bother of copying images to their own server, where else are they cutting corners?

152 points by allangrant 15y ago

FredBrach 15y ago

It seems the blog is completely down.

latchkey 15y ago
Maybe that is the apology.
- FredBrach 15y ago
  No I've managed to read it a while ago
suking 15y ago
They must have got a hold of 37's backend and forgot to change the database password to their own!
pkrefta 15y ago
Look for Google Cache link few comments up.

allangrant 15y ago

The actual apology: Recently we launched a site with several pages copied from 37signals' Highrise. We did more than take inspiration from their design - we actually used html & css code, and hotlinked to images on their site. We apologize to David and 37signals for ripping off their work. It was stupid, lazy, and disrespectful of their creative efforts. It's particularly painful for us to have done this to 37signals because they are big heroes of ours. We just hope they will accept our apologies.

cilurnum 15y ago
One wonders how this ever happened and why on Earth they didn't have HTML and front-end skills enough to do their own presentation. The fact that their blog is now down with a database error does not exactly inspire much confidence.
- RandallBrown 15y ago
  They're sitting around and one of them reads the 37 signals blog post about A/B testing and conversion rates. He says "Dude, do you think their landing page will actually convert better than our current one?" "I don't know, lets try it." So one of them snags the source from Highrise and changes some images around. I'm sure he previewed it, it looked fine and he published it. He probably forgot to change out the button images because they looked fine. Who knows if this is how it happened, but it really seems like it could have been an honest (but definitely pretty stupid) mistake.
  - cilurnum 15y ago
    Any developer with any intelligence or skill doesn't do that. You don't just 'publish' something. As a developer there is no way I can imagine this being done innocently because it is something that is always at the forefront of your mind.
    - ericd 15y ago
      Are you an entrepreneur? If you are, and you've had any success, I'm sure you've "just published" something along the way. It's actually a rather important skill. Not that you should copy and paste something to try it out - you definitely shouldn't - but quick and dirty trial implementations are fairly common. Edit: Not sure why this is getting downvoted, anyone care to explain? Action in startups is not always deliberate.
      - Skywing 15y ago
        perhaps because of the condescending tone of your "and youve had any success" sentence.
        ericd 15y ago
        Ah thanks. Rereading that, I can see what you mean. I mostly said that to caveat that there are many ways to do entrepreneurship badly, and most of the successful paths involve some amount of shooting from the hip.
sloppy_startup 15y ago
this is an example of the kind of sloppy stuff that happens when an angel investor with a big mouth and no taste puts money into 500 startups. you can't expect the best folks are gonna work with c-rate investors. cut rate investors = cut rate entrepreneurs. shame on this company for their blatant theft.
- davemc500hats 15y ago
  thanks. think you meant "when an angel investor with a big mouth and no taste like 500 Startups puts money into..." regardless, we don't shy away from helping our founders, even should they go astray. not proud right now, but we hope to be helpful where possible. live & learn.
  - cilurnum 15y ago
    None of that post makes any grammatical sense. This is beyond the pale and it is not a case of 'live and learn'. Every single one of us as developers have taken the page layouts of others, even looked at their code and then coded something ourselves based around it. What you don't do is list layout code straight and insert your own images and URLs. I take it you're investing enough to employ people with HTML, CSS and front-end skills? Will you throw some funding at me please?
  - abbasmehdi 15y ago
    Dave, I wanted to tell you that I think the way you were handling the situation with DHH on Twitter was great! I saw a video on YouTube titled "the last lecture" a while back, and the biggest takeaway for me was how the guy defined an apology: Proper apologies have three parts: 1) What I did was wrong. 2) I’m sorry that I hurt you. 3) How do I make it better? It’s the third part that people tend to forget…. Apologize when you screw up and focus on other people, not on yourself. This has stuck with me and I noticed you were following on it very well, patiently and with humbleness.
    - anon808 15y ago
      The most import part of that apology formula is missing, actually meaning it. Also if the answer to #3 is obvious (ie stop doing what your apologizing for) then one shouldn't have to ask.
adamtmca 15y ago
How old are you guys? Not making a judgement, genuinely just wondering.
- geoffreydgraham 15y ago
  I think they're in their mid-20s. They screwed up, apologized, asked how they could make it right, got crucified some more, and now have fully prostrated themselves before DHH and the court of public opinion. It's a horrible experience for them, and I reckon they've learned something. One of the lessons they've likely learned is that people are perfectly cool with successful, experienced entrepreneurs casting endless screeds against inexperienced folks who should have known better but didn't. Wonder if they'll have a chance to apply that lesson when/if they become successful themselves. Given their penitence, a little mercy is in order.
cilurnum 15y ago
"and hotlinked to images on their site." Jesus...............
- LearnYouALisp 15y ago
  It boggles the mind!
ainsleyb 15y ago
I have multiple responses to multiple comments on this thread, so I'm going to continue here. For full disclosure, I'm a young entrepreneur (<25), run a company that was started a few months after curebit (my cofounder applied and interviewed for the same YC class with a different idea), have raised pretty close to what curebit has raised, and am also a 500startups-funded company. I'd just like to take a minute to hope that a couple of screw ups by others won't put companies like ours at a disadvantage. It makes me sad to think that "how old are you guys" is one of the first questions someone would ask, since I'm not sure physical age has anything to do with how people react to different situations. I'd sure like to think that if I screwed up people would chalk it up to me being me and not my generation. I also hope people realize the big mouth investor with no taste (especially in what he wears ;) isn't the only person vetting 500startup companies. He has a whole investment team. Yes, Dave does pick a lot of the 500s companies himself (he was our biggest advocate), but the entire 500s team has a say. I also think you're overlooking the fact that curebit was also supported by YCombinator (and Dave has a lot of respect for PG's team and the companies they accept). I don't condone what curebit did (far from it). I am close to positive someone at YC would have at least helped hash out ideas for design (and 500s' mantra is design, data, distribution), and, Dave has always said: running lean doesn't mean running cheap. But I hope that what one company does doesn't ruin it for the rest of us.
- adamtmca 15y ago
  I was the one who asked their ages. I'm 22. I was just wondering. I knew that if I just asked "how old are you?" it would come off as a snarky comment on the situation. That's why I also included "Not making a judgement, genuinely just wondering." While I wasn't trying to tie age to the issue at hand, I would have to disagree with your assertion that physical age doesn't have anything to do with how people react to different situations. Maybe experience is the real driver but obviously that is closely related to age. Either way that's neither here nor there. As for the rest of your comment, I'm not totally clear on what you were trying to get across or who you were responding to but it still doesn't seem like it deserved to be down voted.

sachingulaya 15y ago

You should probably edit the title to "Apology to 37signals, Kinoma, and LaunchBit" Edit: The LaunchBit image is a stock photo. I apologize.

ceejayoz 15y ago
The LaunchBit one is particularly egregious. http://yfrog.com/odx67yoj http://yfrog.com/odx67yoj
- kristofferR 15y ago
  Nope, it's an iStockPhoto illustration. http://www.istockphoto.com/stock-illustration-9935405-retro-rocket-ship-illustration.php http://www.istockphoto.com/stock-illustration-9935405-retro-... Both Launchbit and ShareBooster is breaking the iStockPhoto TOS by using it in their logo though.
  - ceejayoz 15y ago
    Thanks for the correction!
  - designNERD 15y ago
    Plus its pretty sloppy to use a stock illustration as a logo. I call foul on both.
- davemc500hats 15y ago
  actually, both LaunchBit and Curebit got the logo from istockphotos. both are in process of changing I believe.
  - hippo33 15y ago
    Founder of LaunchBit here. That's right. We bought the right to use the rocketship off iStockPhoto. It's fair game for anyone to purchase it as well.

Kique 15y ago

"Recently we launched a site with several pages copied from 37signals’ Highrise. We did more than take inspiration from their design – we actually used html & css code, and hotlinked to images on their site. We apologize to David and 37signals for ripping off their work. It was stupid, lazy, and disrespectful of their creative efforts. It’s particularly painful for us to have done this to 37signals because they are big heroes of ours. We just hope they will accept our apologies." from Google cache http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&safe=off&site=webhp&source=hp&q=cache%3Ablog.curebit.com&pbx=1&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.,cf.osb&fp=550374fd478a51e0&biw=1218&bih=715&ix=sea&ion=1&ix=sea&ion=1 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?sclient=psy-ab&...

pg_bot 15y ago

The blog is down, I am getting "error establishing a database connection"

chris123 15y ago

Pretty good apology Dave McClure wrote for them.

Animus7 15y ago
I know sarcasm when I see it, but judging from the earlier exchange this would actually not be surprising.
- designNERD 15y ago
  Agreed. Based on Dave's response on twitter and the exchange between Allan and DHH, I believe Dave cracked the whip on them. This apology doesn't have the same tone.

jbrowning 15y ago

The copying seems to go deeper than just an experimental A/B test. Compare: http://highrisehq.com/signup http://highrisehq.com/signup with the top half of http://www.curebit.com/pricing http://www.curebit.com/pricing Edit: Replaced Basecamp signup page with Highrise signup page.

il 15y ago
Please. Hundreds of startups use a 37signals-inspired pricing page with 3 plans and the middle "most popular option". Now you're just going on a witch hunt.
- cilurnum 15y ago
  It's a little more than skin deep.
- jbrowning 15y ago
  I would say that the "Choose Plan" buttons are a little more than "inspiration". In fact, they're exact copies: http://imgur.com/Foah7 http://imgur.com/Foah7
- iamjustlooking 15y ago
  When does it cross the line from inspired to copied? The HTML markup for the 3 panel middle thing is almost identical. The Choose Plan buttons are pixel for pixel identical according to imagemagick compare. Was the other page just inspired also?
- dedene 15y ago
  I agree.. BUT: i.e. the "Choose plans" buttons are just copied without any change from the 37Signals signup page. Compare http://highrisehq.com/images/btn_chooseplan_small.png http://highrisehq.com/images/btn_chooseplan_small.png with http://www.curebit.com/images/icons/choose_btn_small.png?1327717568 http://www.curebit.com/images/icons/choose_btn_small.png?132...
- ghshephard 15y ago
  You can't look at the two pages, side-by side and say that curebits was "inspired" - it's blatant copying, and poorly done. Look at all the elements that were basically cut & pasted: o FREE "On all Accounts" up top. o Thicker border on center rectangle o Offset rectangle in center o Black / Same shade of blue for the Name, description of price. Interesting to note, there was a (successful in my book) attempt at original design by using Red/Orange instead of Black for the price. o "Choose Plan" - Same name, positioning - and bit-for bit identical. o "Cancel Anytime" Immediately above three options o Statement of "Confidence" (Trusted vs Safe Secure) o Quoted endorsement below the statement of confidence. It's not illegal, or even particularly immoral - what it is is shady, and unprofessional behavior by anybody who wanted to be able to work as a well-regarded designer. Whoever did that work didn't have a lot of self respect as a designer - and, based on the professional designers that I know - probably didn't consider themselves to be first and foremost a designer. Probably an engineer who had to slap some UI elements onto their website. If all you are trying to do is bottom-feed and make $$$, (Think about how Zynga, or Samsung build many of their products) - then this is actually a pretty good approach - just copy what has worked for others. Real world story - when Netscape finally gave up the ghost as a software company and Mike Homer came up on top, and convinced Jim Barkdsale that our future was as a "Portal" - Jim Barksdale, our Beloved and incredibly well regarded CEO, came out at an all hands, spelled it out to the company, and said "The competition is now the portals - and that's something that we can go out and copy." - he used that word, "copy". Within a week, we had _entire walls_ covered with plotted printouts (remember those?) of Yahoo's Portal, and, underneath those plotted printouts - element by element replicas depicting Netscape.com. You could almost overlay them. It was successful. Netscape sold for $4 Billion to AOL ($10 Billion on the last day of trading) - but I can guarantee you that none of those designers were particularly proud of the work they where doing, and hopefully didn't put it in their portfolio.

auxbuss 15y ago

Clicking the link (to http://blog.curebit.com/ http://blog.curebit.com/) I'm getting 'Error establishing a database connection'.

jsavimbi 15y ago

Don't you have a Google+ account you could've posted it to instead of trying to host it in your own? Are you seriously trying to micro-manage your damage control this way? I thought they vetted these people or something and would have a damage control recipe in place after the AirBnB debacle last year.

parfe 15y ago
Are you taking issue with a company posting an apology on their own website? I'm not sure how that qualifies as micro-managing.
- jsavimbi 15y ago
  I'm shaking my head in disbelief, not really taking issue with anything at this point. Either this guy is trying his damnedest to minimize fallout, unserstandably yet so very amateurish, or he's really that clueless and incompetent.

n9com 15y ago

Looks like they didn't spend their $1.2m on getting a decent web server either - website down.

JackWebbHeller 15y ago

The whole debate is frankly embarrassing for both sides... Of course, admittedly more so for Curebit - but I can't be the only one who thinks that DHH's cocky attitude, publicly tweeting things like "Fucking scumbags", is just embarrassing when he is the main face of a friendly and professional company like 37Signals...?

zerostar07 15y ago
You 're not the only one. I would even call it an understandable mistake for someone who just launched. Telling them to go get some ethics, calling them indecent and scumbags is not the right response. You point their wrongdoings, and let others come to those conclusions, esp. when the accused shows some signs of repent. For comparison, when the Oatmeal found his comics stolen, here's how he responded: http://theoatmeal.com/blog/funnyjunk http://theoatmeal.com/blog/funnyjunk PS. i'm not defending anyone, but as an outsider i found the response was over the top and allangrant didn't call any names
- jsavimbi 15y ago
  Are you under the assumption that these are fresh-faced kids out of school who don't know how to dress themselves, let alone "launch" a web app? You might want to go and study some LinkedIn profiles before apologizing for these guys. And as far is DHH is concerned, why would you want to steal from him in the first place. He gave his best work away for free. I'm no fan but I believe he's entitled to call these people out. In whatever tone he deems appropriate. Get used to it if you think following Curebit's steps is the way to go. It's a rough world out there. Yet Stallman is coddled every time he calls someone "evil" and wishes them dead. Odd that.
  - route66 15y ago
    > why would you want to steal from him in the first place Read your own answer here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3453379 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3453379
    - 15y ago

alexobenauer 15y ago

Site down; see cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7NYBhgZ8-gkJ:blog.curebit.com/+http://blog.curebit.com/&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7NYBhgZ...

Vaanir 15y ago

Maybe it's times like these where this bookmarklet is useful: javascript:void((function(){var a=location.href.replace(/^http%5C:%5C/%5C/(.*)$/,'$1');location.href='http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:+escape(a);})() http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:+escape(a);})())

mindslight 15y ago

And where's the apology from 37signals, venturebeat, and the submitters for helping to turn HN into TMZ?

sloppy_startup 15y ago

this is an example of the kind of sloppy stuff that happens when an angel investor with a big mouth and no taste puts money into 500 startups. you can't expect the best folks are gonna work with c-rate investors. cut rate investors = cut rate entrepreneurs. shame on this company for their blatant theft.

Sargis 15y ago

Don't you think this is akin to piracy? Why are people so outraged about someone using a simple HTML page (or parts of it) without permission when illegally obtaining and using content such as movies or music is a daily occurrence, but you don't see people making a big fuss about that. I'm not saying what he did was right as it obviously isn't, but making such an outrage about this seems a little bit over the top, IMO.

romain_g 15y ago

No matter how people on both sides react, they are all at the very least decently smart persons and an acceptable apology shouldn't be only a place for redemption. I can't imagine people at Curebit assuming that the ripoff wouldn't be discovered. So why did they do that?

petercooper 15y ago

I'm sure I've seen the design of that "Error establishing a database connection" page somewhere before..

manojlds 15y ago

The best way to break a site is to have it come on the front page of Hacker News!

curiousfiddler 15y ago

Man! Curebit is definitely very wrong, but all those abuses just don't make a pretty read on my twitter feed. I am gonna unfollow DHH. I respect him a lot for what he's achieved, but all that profanity leaves a very very bad taste. Personal learning: never abuse. Those words mean nasty things.

curiousfiddler 15y ago
Don't understand the downvotes at all... Curebit's case sets a very ugly example. Profanity in the same sense sets a very ugly example for younger minds, especially when coming from such a well respected entrepreneur.

shareme 15y ago

Unfortunately, blog author did not get the lesson.. 37Signals was ONLY ONE-OF_SITES that Cutebit stole from.. Thy have clear habit of doing so

auxbuss 15y ago
Please cite.
- getsat 15y ago
  http://www.curebit.com http://www.curebit.com <-> http://kinoma.com http://kinoma.com And more copying from 37Signals: http://twitter.com/#!/dhh/status/163295779593785345 http://twitter.com/#!/dhh/status/163295779593785345 http://twitter.com/#!/dhh/status/163298220322209792 http://twitter.com/#!/dhh/status/163298220322209792
  - papalalu 15y ago
    the kinoma link is much more of the accepted face of imitation, it just rubs a little after the previous issues.
  - jeff18 15y ago
    The Sharebooster logo is actually stock art: https://twitter.com/#!/launchbit/status/163328570364669952 https://twitter.com/#!/launchbit/status/163328570364669952
    - moe 15y ago
      And it's a pure coincidence that a company called "curebit" chooses the exact same logo stock-art as one called "launchbit"
      - untog 15y ago
        Well there's an interesting debate, there. Launchbit bought a stock image. So even if Curebit saw the logo through Launchbit, is there a reason why they can't buy it too? I imagine the creator of the stock image wouldn't mind the extra money. I think that using a stock image for your logo is probably unwise for exactly this reason.

tbsdy 15y ago

Database connection error...

guynamedloren 15y ago

I hope they're A/B testing their apologies, because that one sucked.

dkrich 15y ago

The thing that amazes me most about this whole debacle is how completely unnecessary it was. Web designers are popping up everywhere like fucking mushrooms, and these guys (presumably pretty intelligent) chose to just steal a design. Developing a nice-looking design is the easiest part of a startup. Generating the idea, interest, and funding is what stalls 98% of them. They had all that, but screwed up on the most doable aspect of the company. That alone greatly calls into question the judgment of the founders (not to mention the moral implications).

sunchild 15y ago
For me, the really objectionable part isn't the "thievery", it's the sloppiness of it. Anyone with half a clue knows that if you're copying HTML:(a) you'd better redact any references to the original source, (b) you ought to change the class names, and (c) you sure as shit better not link to resources on the owner's servers. After all, most HTML/CSS is borderline protectable under copyright in the first place. P.S. If you're copy/pasting HTML/CSS, you're pretty terrible at web design. Anyone with even the slightest facility in web design could whip up a clone of the 37Signals landing page in an evening without doing more than sneaking a peek at the source.
pbreit 15y ago
That's why the "accident" explanation is somewhat plausible, imo.
untog 15y ago
Developing a nice-looking design is the easiest part of a startup. Yes and no. They didn't choose the design because it looked nice, they chose it because it had already been A/B tested as more effective (admittedly, for a product other than their own, but still). As someone who has created nice designs, and as someone that has also extensively multivariant tested designs to see which one gets a 1% boost in clickthrough... the 'nice' part is just the tip of the iceberg. To clarify: not defending what they did. Just suggesting what I think their reasoning was.
ahoyhere 15y ago
It really reminded me of the homeschooling family in some small town who named their kid "Hitler" and then tried to sue the local bakery who refused to put his name on a cake. They really seemed to think the whole US would get behind them as a "free speech" movement. If you're gonna name your kid something horrible, that's one thing. But if you actually think people are going to support you for it? A whole nother kettle of fish entirely. The scariest people are people who not only do wrong, but who don't have the good sense to realize how others will react to it. They either entirely lack "theory of mind," or it's so out of touch with reality as to be utterly useless. Whenever you come across people like that in life/business, I've found that it's smart to run as fast as possible the other way.

pnmahoney 15y ago

I don't think anyone has a final answer, but really _how close_ do designs have to be so as to lack integrity? (assuming that they hadn't straight up lifted the CSS, images, button etc... which they did, which is clearly wrong.) Ex: DHH says http://elance.com http://elance.com is inspiration, not theft. Ok. Ex 2: A more difficult edge is http://coursekit.com http://coursekit.com I instantly recalled their design after seeing this scandal, although I'd initially taken note of it for its effectiveness. Their similarity to basecamp is on the front page only, and no assets stolen. (full disclosure: competitor, vaguely, for a hackathon-started education product I'm working on.) Like, we can think up a MILLION edge cases. That's not the point. I'm really, really curious to hear what you guys think the difference IS. and please, please, PLEASE don't respond to this with vitriol on other side. if you think there are problems happening here in the way we treat design, and how ppl react, just DON'T add to it in that way. EDIT: edited to match repost, because of downvote(?) here

pnmahoney 15y ago
I guess downvote-burying is a pretty good way to stimulate discussion, huh? I don't know if I should interpret it as you agreeing with DHH or not.

atacrawl 15y ago

To everyone who thinks DHH and 37signals overreacted to this, keep in mind that the IA/UI paradigm introduced in Basecamp has been aped by many startups in their web apps with nary a whiff of public complaint. It's one thing to copy the design of a marketing page (which is pretty weak), but to serve assets from that company's servers? Such an action is so idiotic and pathetic, that it's absurd. It's completely inexcusable and deserves to be called out whenever it happens.

earbitscom 15y ago
I've never seen a grown man act the way DHH did. Call it out, but do it with some professionalism.
- ahoyhere 15y ago
  You've never seen a grown man use strong language or call somebody a fucking something-something? Guess you've never read Mark Twain, or watched George Carlin, or any comic, ever, except maybe that guy from Full House who specializes in "clean comedy." Or been to a bar. Or watched a sports game. Or hung out with people who are passionate. Please, can the disingenuous hyperbole. Nobody is buying it. Most importantly, not everyone has to buy into your idea of "professionalism." Thank god.
  - joemoon 15y ago
    > except maybe that guy from Full House who specializes in "clean comedy." Wait, was this a subtle joke? Bob Saget's humor is very vulgar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctHArXFxu9A&feature=player_detailpage#t=126s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctHArXFxu9A&feature=playe... Not my cup of tea, but there it is.
    - ahoyhere 15y ago
      Bob Saget does vulgar comedy?? There goes my childhood. No, I meant Dave whatshisface.
  - 15y ago

joshontheweb 15y ago

Inexcusable but not a bad move in the end. This will all settle and be forgotten except that everyone will remember their name. Unethical and unwitting but a good publicity stunt nonetheless.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

trotsky 15y ago

I wonder how the community reconciles so many posters being up in arms about this event while frequently promoting stories from torrent freak and generally dismissing the belief that much harm comes from copyright infringement. Is it different when someone you know or respect is the injured party?

spullara 15y ago
I think people find it more offensive if 1) you take credit for the work and 2) you make money by using it. But you're right, there must be some internal mental model that allows them to be so obviously different.
- mikeash 15y ago
  Yes, precisely. One case is copyright infringement for personal use, one is copyright infringement and misattribution for commercial use. Compare e.g. Bob downloading "The Dark Knight" to watch it versus Bob selling copies of "The Dark Bob, by Bob" which is actually just TDK with a different label slapped on it. I think a lot of people would find the latter to be much more wrong.
code177 15y ago
Whilst 37signals does use this bit of creative IP to generate revenue, the page itself isn't actually the product - so copying it creates neither a reduced demand for the page itself or 37signals' services, nor does it impact their bottom-line in any obvious way (curebit and 37signals aren't in the same product-space). Although the page itself is defensible IP for 37signals, the chances of them taking legal action on it (see above) is so remotely slim that it puts this whole thing into the realm of creative and professional courtesy rather than copyright infringement. It's more like a stranger coming into the town saloon, getting drunk, and spilling his beer on the local bad-ass.

humbyvaldes 15y ago

Startup Metrics for Pirates: AARRR! and steal peoples shit lol

soapdog 15y ago

Anyone has a friendly link to a summary of what happened?

gumbo 15y ago

I stumble upon stolen graphics so much time, when a company is not able to create an original landing page, how one can expect that company to create something more complex. This is not to say curebit won't succeed, but as one said "we are in a hard world" and people are looking where you succeed but also where you fail. I hope this mistake will be the last one until the go bigger otherwise i'm afraid the won't be forgiven one more time.

gumbo 15y ago

I think DHH did it the wrong way, it is such an arrogant reaction. it is not like Curebit is a concurrent or something like that so they could have just sent an email asking remove the elements. That's been said, but if this embarrassing event help someone to never ever steal elements again then it's is a goo thing.

gumbo 15y ago
Just went through the whole thread on twitter, and now i see that it is #curebit that tried to dig their own grave. Nevertheless let learn the lessons and move forward, inspire don't steal.

anon22342 15y ago

Can someone explain why this is such a big deal? Genuinely curious. It seems the HN hivemind has a much stronger response to someone stealing a web designer's work vs, say stealing a Hollywood studio's work and hiding behind DMCA safe harbor.

DarkShikari 15y ago
Because they have higher standards for themselves (HN startups) than for movie pirates?

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

eduardordm 15y ago

Learned: - Some people will actually steal your CHECK icons - Over-bashing a stealer will not make you look nice - Immediatism never seem to work on your side

crikli 15y ago

Humility on either side would have gone a long way.

Encryptor 15y ago

The site blog.curebit.com is down. Here's the cached version: "Apology to 37signals Posted on January 28, 2012 by Allan Grant Recently we launched a site with several pages copied from 37signals’ Highrise. We did more than take inspiration from their design – we actually used html & css code, and hotlinked to images on their site. We apologize to David and 37signals for ripping off their work. It was stupid, lazy, and disrespectful of their creative efforts. It’s particularly painful for us to have done this to 37signals because they are big heroes of ours. We just hope they will accept our apologies."

Hominem 15y ago

I almost feel bad for these guys but I understand why DHH was so pissed. Getting inspiration or even straight up stealing the HTLM and CSS is one thing, but referencing assets on 37signals servers is beyond the pale as 37signals is paying money to serve those assets. This happened to a company I worked for, a company not only ganked our website but used pictures of our offices and staff we had on our about us page!

jakejake 15y ago
I've had this happen and they were actually using a sizable amount of bandwidth. The great thing about it, though, is that you can move your originals and change the hot linked images to something else. Like a message to their customers, gross pictures, etc. it can be a hilarious opportunity to mess with somebody who is stealing your stuff!

aacook 15y ago

I understand they want to apologize quickly, but to me the post is so short that it comes off as not genuine. Even the title "Apology to 37signals" seems like they just don't really care. All that said, it must suck to be in this position.

ddw 15y ago

Copying someone's layout, jacking a logo and mentioning A/B testing are seriously all it takes to get millions of funding??? I'm on the next flight out to the Valley!

jetsnoc 15y ago

I think @dhh wasted a great opportunity to be a leader and a mentor. I think he should have asked allengrant to rise to the occasion. Instead he was incredibly rude and shared his contempt publicly! It all seems so incongruent to me. On one side of the coin, 37s wants to share their results openly but on the other using the idea they shared makes him "a fucking scumbag." I understand there is a copyright violation involved. However, I suspected 37s would have been more... tactful. Unfortunately, this is the second time 37signals has disappointed me in the last few weeks. As a customer, they violated my sense of privacy and almost as worse one of their partners is a total hot-head. Personally, and this is only my opinion based on no fact...In the back of my mind I am thinking "what would a hot-head that does not respect my companies privacy do with our information?!" To think I used to look up to them!

denysonique 15y ago

Lean startup

eightysteele 15y ago

Minor nit, but what stuck me most about the apology was that Allan didn't include a link to http://37signals.com http://37signals.com.

mattaus 15y ago

Worst apology ever!

jaimoepelle 15y ago

Has anyone heard from 37? Curebit is good tech that works, they have been more than fair in the few dealings I have had the privilege to work with them on. They, like most companies constantly change... how many logos did Google have. Rather than an indictment on them I see it as on the community. More help, more share, less complaining about things that really don't matter. In today's world product matters, template design is secondary to the many things they are doing daily to make a business. and 37 is the one company that goes out of their way to share what works and encourages startups to use their advice. So curebit made yet another change to their homepage...who cares save the few who tear down cause they cant build up. Allan, u created a great product, u made ur clients more money and are positioning yourself to lead a great new company. Commended u are, and your success will have nothing to do with the design of your homepage....if it were that easy.

provokeme 15y ago

Curebit who? Not anymore. Well played.

ssharp 15y ago

It's nice that they apologized, but aside from the ethics behind what they did, I think I'd be extremely weary of using Curebit. If they are lazy enough to directly copy HTML/CSS and not even go through the bother of copying images to their own server, where else are they cutting corners?