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I'm worried about riding my bike in the city. A friend of mine died on her bike when hit by a truck in Seattle a few years ago and since then I just don't feel

by lacker 4y ago

I'm worried about riding my bike in the city. A friend of mine died on her bike when hit by a truck in Seattle a few years ago and since then I just don't feel okay biking alongside cars any more, especially with kids. I know this is fundamentally born of emotion rather than rationalism, but still, it does seem like riding a bike is much more dangerous than driving. Bicycles are somewhere from 3x to 11x more dangerous than cars. https://bicycleuniverse.com/bicycle-safety-almanac/ https://bicycleuniverse.com/bicycle-safety-almanac/ When I visited Amsterdam I liked how they often had separated bike lanes, not like in the US where cars can and do just drive through the bike lanes, like an actual physical barrier preventing cars from driving through bike lanes. Maybe that would be a lot safer, but, I won't hold my breath on that coming to the US.

asdff 4y ago
I have this feeling that part of the high case of bike fatalities is a lack of education or really good intentions of a lot of bike riders I see. I take my lane and follow the laws of traffic on a bike. It results in pretty safe passage even if there isn't bike infrastructure, since cars now have to change lanes if they want to find room to get around me, and I am generally more visible to turning traffic and am outside as many blindspots as possible. They still honk and yell "fuck you" either way, but now they give me room instead of ramming me into the gutter or into a door, and they actually see me. On the other hand, no one is taught how to safely ride a bike after they figure out how to pedal one the first dozen feet, unlike cars where you have to pass exams or have classes. I hardly see anyone taking a lane when biking. I hardly see anyone with lights. I hardly see any signalling. I see a lot of people riding against the flow of traffic even. I see people riding without helmets. I even see people who are clearly intoxicated on something or another swerving over a 5 lane road. If these people sorts of bikers I see anecdotally are any way representative to your average bike rider, then I'm surprised the number is only 3x higher.
f_devd 4y ago
> Bicycles are somewhere from 3x to 11x more dangerous than cars. In the US, where there is effectively no bicycle infrastructure. In the Netherlands it seems to be about 1.18x (or 1.1x if you include trucks) [0]. [0]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/523310/netherlands-number-of-cyclist-road-fatalities/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/523310/netherlands-numbe...
- chroma 4y ago
  The important metric is fatalities per distance traveled, not absolute numbers. In the Netherlands, bicycles have 11 fatalities per billion kilometers traveled. Cars have 1.6.
  - locallost 4y ago
    By that metric, walking is the most dangerous mode of transport. Somehow seems illogical.
    - chroma 4y ago
      The comparison is valid because people in this thread are saying that bikes should substitute for many car trips. If they were saying the same thing about walking then I’d make the point about waking safety. But walking can’t substitute for many car trips so it’s a non-issue. Cars have disadvantages and externalities, but they are much safer than bicycles. This is true even in the most bike-friendly countries on earth.
      - f_devd 4y ago
        They are a replacement for cities not for all road travel, same way trucks aren't going to be replaced by scooter, it's a different mode of transportation better suited for shorter distances. The comparison could be valid if you filter the car travel for <15km of planned route.
      - pharmakom 4y ago
        Well let’s make cycling safer with proper infrastructure then.
      - locallost 4y ago
        The original argument did not involve which trips can be replaced by walking or cycling, merely that per distance driven cars are safer. This makes driving a car much safer than walking, which should give us pause and make us reconsider if it makes sense. It doesn't -- merely having and regularly using a car makes people travel greater distances. Without a car they wouldn't do it, and increased car dependance results in worse traffic safety. If the US had the same per capita death rate as the Netherlands, there would be around 12k deaths. Instead there are over 40k. The additional kicker is that most of the pedestrians and cyclists killed die after a collision with a car. As it is, roughly two million people in the world die in traffic per year, almost all of it involving cars. So much for safety.
sofixa 4y ago
"Painted bicycle gutters" is the derogatory term for what many North American cities call "biking infrastructure". There have even been some studies that suggest they have worse effects than nothing, because they give a false sense of security to cyclists without providing any protection against drivers. Especially when coupled with total lack of general planning (e.g. bike planes splattered from random place A to random place B, finishing in the middle of an intersection). Everyone deserves better biking infrastructure, cyclists and car drivers alike (more bikes => less cars => less traffic => happier drivers and happier cyclists).
- lacker 4y ago
  Yeah, I can believe that. I remember one spot off the 280 there are some bicycle lanes that go right over highway off ramps. Drivers are just constantly zooming through at near-highway speeds. Yeah, they're painted green, so what? It's like a particle accelerator encouraging bicycles to smash themselves.

by lacker 4y ago

asdff 4y ago

I have this feeling that part of the high case of bike fatalities is a lack of education or really good intentions of a lot of bike riders I see. I take my lane and follow the laws of traffic on a bike. It results in pretty safe passage even if there isn't bike infrastructure, since cars now have to change lanes if they want to find room to get around me, and I am generally more visible to turning traffic and am outside as many blindspots as possible. They still honk and yell "fuck you" either way, but now they give me room instead of ramming me into the gutter or into a door, and they actually see me. On the other hand, no one is taught how to safely ride a bike after they figure out how to pedal one the first dozen feet, unlike cars where you have to pass exams or have classes. I hardly see anyone taking a lane when biking. I hardly see anyone with lights. I hardly see any signalling. I see a lot of people riding against the flow of traffic even. I see people riding without helmets. I even see people who are clearly intoxicated on something or another swerving over a 5 lane road. If these people sorts of bikers I see anecdotally are any way representative to your average bike rider, then I'm surprised the number is only 3x higher.

f_devd 4y ago

> Bicycles are somewhere from 3x to 11x more dangerous than cars. In the US, where there is effectively no bicycle infrastructure. In the Netherlands it seems to be about 1.18x (or 1.1x if you include trucks) [0]. [0]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/523310/netherlands-number-of-cyclist-road-fatalities/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/523310/netherlands-numbe...

chroma 4y ago
The important metric is fatalities per distance traveled, not absolute numbers. In the Netherlands, bicycles have 11 fatalities per billion kilometers traveled. Cars have 1.6.
- locallost 4y ago
  By that metric, walking is the most dangerous mode of transport. Somehow seems illogical.
  - chroma 4y ago
    The comparison is valid because people in this thread are saying that bikes should substitute for many car trips. If they were saying the same thing about walking then I’d make the point about waking safety. But walking can’t substitute for many car trips so it’s a non-issue. Cars have disadvantages and externalities, but they are much safer than bicycles. This is true even in the most bike-friendly countries on earth.
    - f_devd 4y ago
      They are a replacement for cities not for all road travel, same way trucks aren't going to be replaced by scooter, it's a different mode of transportation better suited for shorter distances. The comparison could be valid if you filter the car travel for <15km of planned route.
    - pharmakom 4y ago
      Well let’s make cycling safer with proper infrastructure then.
    - locallost 4y ago
      The original argument did not involve which trips can be replaced by walking or cycling, merely that per distance driven cars are safer. This makes driving a car much safer than walking, which should give us pause and make us reconsider if it makes sense. It doesn't -- merely having and regularly using a car makes people travel greater distances. Without a car they wouldn't do it, and increased car dependance results in worse traffic safety. If the US had the same per capita death rate as the Netherlands, there would be around 12k deaths. Instead there are over 40k. The additional kicker is that most of the pedestrians and cyclists killed die after a collision with a car. As it is, roughly two million people in the world die in traffic per year, almost all of it involving cars. So much for safety.

sofixa 4y ago

"Painted bicycle gutters" is the derogatory term for what many North American cities call "biking infrastructure". There have even been some studies that suggest they have worse effects than nothing, because they give a false sense of security to cyclists without providing any protection against drivers. Especially when coupled with total lack of general planning (e.g. bike planes splattered from random place A to random place B, finishing in the middle of an intersection). Everyone deserves better biking infrastructure, cyclists and car drivers alike (more bikes => less cars => less traffic => happier drivers and happier cyclists).

lacker 4y ago
Yeah, I can believe that. I remember one spot off the 280 there are some bicycle lanes that go right over highway off ramps. Drivers are just constantly zooming through at near-highway speeds. Yeah, they're painted green, so what? It's like a particle accelerator encouraging bicycles to smash themselves.