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In terms of day-to-day life-feel, it's more about the children being self-sufficient. Raising independent children in cities is the default: as young as 10, the

In terms of day-to-day life-feel, it's more about the children being self-sufficient. Raising independent children in cities is the default: as young as 10, they can safely use trains and busses, hang out at city parks or friends places, etc. In rural areas, if you aren't very thoughtful about where you live, the kids are connected to you by the umbilical cord of the family automobile until they old enough to drive. In terms of actual dependence, I feel equally self-sufficient in both places. Rural people massively under-estimate their dependence on global economic systems and particularly three things. First, the regular weekly flow of gasoline and diesel and various finished goods. Second, the regular monthly flow of social security checks. Third, tax dollars from major metros to fund schools. At least where I lived our school system was almost completely funded by state tax dollars that were re-appropriated from suburban and urban districts; the local tax base accounted to something like something like one tenth of the district's education budget.) These dependencies exist in cities as well, of course, but there doesn't seem to be any confusion about that fact in cities.

giantg2 4y ago
You might be thinking suburban. In many rural areas, you have kids as young as 10 hunting (supervised, or supposed to be), fishing, riding their bike places, exploring or "hanging out" in the woods, building things, working with power tools, etc. Really, location foent matter that much. It's the parenting style and what constraints the local culture places on them.
- thwayunion 4y ago
  No. I'm thinking of rural areas. I know the difference... weird for you to assume I don't, honestly. > hunting supervised So not independent. At all. > fishing, riding their bike places, exploring or "hanging out" in the woods, building things, working with power tools, etc. For a ten year old, all of those things can be done in a city FAR, FAR easier in a city than in a rural area. Even exploring the woods, in many cities, can be done by a ten year old with a commuter rail train pass and a bike. The crucial question when you are in a rural area is: with who? > riding their bike places You have to be intentional for this to be possible in rural areas. Not even "safe", just literally possible. Again, it's totally possible. But if you are not intentional, your kids will not, by default, be able to bike to their friend's place or a common middle ground. If they have to bike ten miles to meet up with a friend, they're going to end up connected to a car and spending most of their time online.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    "So not independent. At all." Go back and re-read. Not everyone follows the rules. "But with who?" Friends within a couple miles, siblings, etc. "You have to be intentional for this to be possible in rural areas. Not even "safe", just literally possible." Yes, tell me my life experiences. Now stop trolling. It is literally possible and people do bike and walk places miles away. Don't believe me? Go look at the Amish.
    - thwayunion 4y ago
      > Friends within a couple miles Which may or may not exist within 2 miles. Or even 10. Again, you have to be more intentional. In a city you can buy pretty much anywhere and the kid will have neighborhood friends. When moving to a rural area you have to think about this a bit more carefully. It's possible but not default. If you buy a place 10 miles away from the nearest house with kids who have a reasonable age overlap, then that's going to have a huge impact on your kid's independence. I am not trolling you. I don't care about you at all. I am addressing the original poster. I am giving them reasonable advice: you have to be more careful about where you buy in rural areas if you want your kid to be independent. There are downsides and things to be careful about when moving to any area. I am not attacking your lifestyle. I am simply pointing out some of the things that you need to think more carefully about when moving to a rural area, especially if you are a city person with no knowledge of rural life. I would give a similar list of downsides and how to mitigate them if OP were a person who has only lived in rural areas and was asking about city life. "Don't buy above a noisy bar; you can cross boundaries between safe and unsafe in a short stroll; research the transit system; having a car will be expensive but essential if you want to get out of the city; school quality can be excellent or terrible; apartment living has many downsides you'll need to be careful about mitigating; etc." None of these things are reasons to live in one place or another, and there are ways to address the problems. But you have to be aware of the problems in order to mitigate them. And the OP has never lives in a rural area, so might not have thought about "oh, if I am 2 miles down a gravel road and the nearest cluster of properties is 12 miles down the road then my kids have a hell of a bike ride if they want to play after school without depending on me shuttling them around. Odds are they'll probably end up on the internet a lot instead of doing the 7-14 mile ride on any given afternoon." Not a reason to move to a rural area! Just something to think about and consider -- cutting that down to 2 miles from 14 changes the game. My posts are not directed at you. They are advice to a different person entirely. But since we're here, another observation about rural life: aggressive and angry people are not unique to cities; they exist everywhere.
uberman 4y ago
While I am sure there are lots of independent city kids, I really don't think they are independent the way country kids are. Sure, we had to drive to more play dates and the closest kids who are actually our neighbors live almost a mile away. However, my kids and really most kids in my community safely ride and play alone in a manner that might get city parents arrested. These kids help manage active herds and flocks. Sure, our community relies on external energy that we take for granted, just like city folk rely on food and water they take for granted. I don't get your social security check point/dig though. Do you believe there are somehow fewer recipients of such services in cities? I personally know a guy who refuses his social security on principle. While I know rural schools can have funding issues, I know our public schools are well funded and we don't end up getting our per-student fair share of state funding as our system is well capitalized. As far as quality goes, I don't think there is any question that city schools are craptacular when compared to suburban and rural schools.
- thwayunion 4y ago
  I am giving OP advice on how to succeed at moving out of a city, not attacking your lifestyle. You seem mostly ignorant about what city life is like, and therefore are unlikely to give OP good advice about the differences between urban and rural living. Having spent considerable amounts of my life in both environments, I can point out the things OP should think about. > However, my kids and really most kids in my community safely ride and play alone in a manner that might get city parents arrested. This is ignorant, tbh. Elementary and middle school students take the subway to school alone, all the time. In many cities schools even hand out free/subsidized transit tickets. Kids getting arrested for walking or biking alone in a city is rare. Also, the stories that make it to HN's front page are almost always about rural communities or sparse suburbs not near a major metro. The last one happened in a town in rural Connecticut. In Reason's archive of free range parenting articles, I cannot find a single story about an arrest in a city. All of those arrests happen in either rural or suburban communities. OP: you are more likely to be arrested for letting your child wander around alone in a suburb or rural area than in a dense city. > Sure, our community relies on external energy that we take for granted, just like city folk rely on food and water they take for granted. Again, I am giving OP advice. If OP moving to a rural area so that he is not dependent on modern life, he's most likely in for a rude awakening. Everyone understands that city dwellers are dependent on others. Many city folk move to the country thinking they will be independent, not realizing that they will still be dependent on others and on society. > school funding Very state dependent. Again, I am giving OP advice. If he's in a state where this is true -- and there are many where it's true -- his kid's school quality will depend on state funding formulas. Raising local taxes to pay for schools if that formula changes will be very difficult. State level politics may have pragmatic impacts on your life in a way that doesn't happen in a city that can insulate itself from statehouse politics. You're often trading city counsel politics for statehouse politics. Not always. Often. Something to be aware of -- if you're moving to a rural area to escape the effects that politics can have on your life, it aint gonna happen unless you go full off grid and home school. Where there are people and services, there is politics. > As far as quality goes, I don't think there is any question that city schools are craptacular when compared to suburban and rural schools. Another ignorant assumption about cities. Most of the best best-ranked public schools in the country are located in cities [1]. If OP wants to provide a best-in-class education, that's possible in cities by getting into the right public magnets. And in every city there are excellent but not top-x-in-the-world public schools that are easier to get into. It's also possible in rural areas, but usually requires out-of-school enrichment. Which can be easier and more accessible than getting into great magnets for many folks! Again, not digging rural areas, giving OP actionable advice. Some rural schools are terrible and some are excellent. Similarly, some city schools are terrible, and some are truly excellent. OP: anyone who tells you otherwise about either rural or urban schools is ignorant. I am not competing with you about urban vs rural. These posts are not directed at you. I am providing OP with accurate advice about how to manage a transition. That involves pointing out the things that can go wrong and how to address them, not fixating on the things that come easily. [1] https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/national-rankings https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/national-...

giantg2 4y ago

You might be thinking suburban. In many rural areas, you have kids as young as 10 hunting (supervised, or supposed to be), fishing, riding their bike places, exploring or "hanging out" in the woods, building things, working with power tools, etc. Really, location foent matter that much. It's the parenting style and what constraints the local culture places on them.

thwayunion 4y ago
No. I'm thinking of rural areas. I know the difference... weird for you to assume I don't, honestly. > hunting supervised So not independent. At all. > fishing, riding their bike places, exploring or "hanging out" in the woods, building things, working with power tools, etc. For a ten year old, all of those things can be done in a city FAR, FAR easier in a city than in a rural area. Even exploring the woods, in many cities, can be done by a ten year old with a commuter rail train pass and a bike. The crucial question when you are in a rural area is: with who? > riding their bike places You have to be intentional for this to be possible in rural areas. Not even "safe", just literally possible. Again, it's totally possible. But if you are not intentional, your kids will not, by default, be able to bike to their friend's place or a common middle ground. If they have to bike ten miles to meet up with a friend, they're going to end up connected to a car and spending most of their time online.
- giantg2 4y ago
  "So not independent. At all." Go back and re-read. Not everyone follows the rules. "But with who?" Friends within a couple miles, siblings, etc. "You have to be intentional for this to be possible in rural areas. Not even "safe", just literally possible." Yes, tell me my life experiences. Now stop trolling. It is literally possible and people do bike and walk places miles away. Don't believe me? Go look at the Amish.
  - thwayunion 4y ago
    > Friends within a couple miles Which may or may not exist within 2 miles. Or even 10. Again, you have to be more intentional. In a city you can buy pretty much anywhere and the kid will have neighborhood friends. When moving to a rural area you have to think about this a bit more carefully. It's possible but not default. If you buy a place 10 miles away from the nearest house with kids who have a reasonable age overlap, then that's going to have a huge impact on your kid's independence. I am not trolling you. I don't care about you at all. I am addressing the original poster. I am giving them reasonable advice: you have to be more careful about where you buy in rural areas if you want your kid to be independent. There are downsides and things to be careful about when moving to any area. I am not attacking your lifestyle. I am simply pointing out some of the things that you need to think more carefully about when moving to a rural area, especially if you are a city person with no knowledge of rural life. I would give a similar list of downsides and how to mitigate them if OP were a person who has only lived in rural areas and was asking about city life. "Don't buy above a noisy bar; you can cross boundaries between safe and unsafe in a short stroll; research the transit system; having a car will be expensive but essential if you want to get out of the city; school quality can be excellent or terrible; apartment living has many downsides you'll need to be careful about mitigating; etc." None of these things are reasons to live in one place or another, and there are ways to address the problems. But you have to be aware of the problems in order to mitigate them. And the OP has never lives in a rural area, so might not have thought about "oh, if I am 2 miles down a gravel road and the nearest cluster of properties is 12 miles down the road then my kids have a hell of a bike ride if they want to play after school without depending on me shuttling them around. Odds are they'll probably end up on the internet a lot instead of doing the 7-14 mile ride on any given afternoon." Not a reason to move to a rural area! Just something to think about and consider -- cutting that down to 2 miles from 14 changes the game. My posts are not directed at you. They are advice to a different person entirely. But since we're here, another observation about rural life: aggressive and angry people are not unique to cities; they exist everywhere.

uberman 4y ago

While I am sure there are lots of independent city kids, I really don't think they are independent the way country kids are. Sure, we had to drive to more play dates and the closest kids who are actually our neighbors live almost a mile away. However, my kids and really most kids in my community safely ride and play alone in a manner that might get city parents arrested. These kids help manage active herds and flocks. Sure, our community relies on external energy that we take for granted, just like city folk rely on food and water they take for granted. I don't get your social security check point/dig though. Do you believe there are somehow fewer recipients of such services in cities? I personally know a guy who refuses his social security on principle. While I know rural schools can have funding issues, I know our public schools are well funded and we don't end up getting our per-student fair share of state funding as our system is well capitalized. As far as quality goes, I don't think there is any question that city schools are craptacular when compared to suburban and rural schools.

thwayunion 4y ago
I am giving OP advice on how to succeed at moving out of a city, not attacking your lifestyle. You seem mostly ignorant about what city life is like, and therefore are unlikely to give OP good advice about the differences between urban and rural living. Having spent considerable amounts of my life in both environments, I can point out the things OP should think about. > However, my kids and really most kids in my community safely ride and play alone in a manner that might get city parents arrested. This is ignorant, tbh. Elementary and middle school students take the subway to school alone, all the time. In many cities schools even hand out free/subsidized transit tickets. Kids getting arrested for walking or biking alone in a city is rare. Also, the stories that make it to HN's front page are almost always about rural communities or sparse suburbs not near a major metro. The last one happened in a town in rural Connecticut. In Reason's archive of free range parenting articles, I cannot find a single story about an arrest in a city. All of those arrests happen in either rural or suburban communities. OP: you are more likely to be arrested for letting your child wander around alone in a suburb or rural area than in a dense city. > Sure, our community relies on external energy that we take for granted, just like city folk rely on food and water they take for granted. Again, I am giving OP advice. If OP moving to a rural area so that he is not dependent on modern life, he's most likely in for a rude awakening. Everyone understands that city dwellers are dependent on others. Many city folk move to the country thinking they will be independent, not realizing that they will still be dependent on others and on society. > school funding Very state dependent. Again, I am giving OP advice. If he's in a state where this is true -- and there are many where it's true -- his kid's school quality will depend on state funding formulas. Raising local taxes to pay for schools if that formula changes will be very difficult. State level politics may have pragmatic impacts on your life in a way that doesn't happen in a city that can insulate itself from statehouse politics. You're often trading city counsel politics for statehouse politics. Not always. Often. Something to be aware of -- if you're moving to a rural area to escape the effects that politics can have on your life, it aint gonna happen unless you go full off grid and home school. Where there are people and services, there is politics. > As far as quality goes, I don't think there is any question that city schools are craptacular when compared to suburban and rural schools. Another ignorant assumption about cities. Most of the best best-ranked public schools in the country are located in cities [1]. If OP wants to provide a best-in-class education, that's possible in cities by getting into the right public magnets. And in every city there are excellent but not top-x-in-the-world public schools that are easier to get into. It's also possible in rural areas, but usually requires out-of-school enrichment. Which can be easier and more accessible than getting into great magnets for many folks! Again, not digging rural areas, giving OP actionable advice. Some rural schools are terrible and some are excellent. Similarly, some city schools are terrible, and some are truly excellent. OP: anyone who tells you otherwise about either rural or urban schools is ignorant. I am not competing with you about urban vs rural. These posts are not directed at you. I am providing OP with accurate advice about how to manage a transition. That involves pointing out the things that can go wrong and how to address them, not fixating on the things that come easily. [1] https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/national-rankings https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/national-...