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Ask HN: Why is the abuse of flagging allowed?

5 points by O__________O 4y ago

@Dang: Please explain why HN tolerates/allows flagging without having an explanation per flag that’s traceable to guidelines system has logged the related user as having been notified of prior? As is, to me, I understand balance of HN, having too many rules, injecting rules/systems that upset the feel of HN, but I feel like users abusing flags is toxic to the spirit of HN and if any user is found to be abusing flags they should be ban from being allowed to use flags and disputing flags should be possible; if a user repeatedly falsely disputes flags, they should be ban.

pettycashstash2 4y ago
I believe its a self regulating system.
- O__________O 4y ago
  Agree, which is why I posted this, but to me at the point any pattern is toxic to the spirit of HN — Dang has a responsibility as the only official moderator to address it.
austin-cheney 4y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler's_veto https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler's_veto The only purpose of flagging is always a heckler’s veto. The problem is whether such deliberate censorship occurs to satisfy disagreement or community standards. At this time there is no way to know.
- O__________O 4y ago
  No, all the following an more is possible: public logs of flags, admin logging of rules viewed by users to do X action, requiring flags be tied to an existing rule, having flags audited users, banning flagging rights from users abusing them, banning users repeatedly falsely disputing flags, etc. Users abusing flags though is clearly toxic to the spirit of HN and should not be tolerated — it has no place in the HN community.
  - austin-cheney 4y ago
    Where is the distinction defined that determines abuse? It appears flags when used in a non abusive manner almost only apply to submissions and not comments. Punishing abusive comments appears to almost exclusively occur with maximum down votes while flagging comments appears to only occur on comments that have too many upvotes suggesting a silencing of a difference of opinion.
    - O__________O 4y ago
      >> It appears flags when used in a non abusive manner almost only apply to submissions and not comments. This is in accurate, though as is, agree that it’s hard to see as a result of HN not having a public log and reporting of flags. >> Where is the distinction defined that determines abuse? Any flag not clearly traceable to a violation of public guidelines.
warrenm 4y ago
Why should someone be forced to explain why they vote the way they do?
- O__________O 4y ago
  Flags are NOT votes — which is part of the problem, HN treats flags as votes and users are abusing it. Down voting is not even possible for submissions unless you flag a submission. Down votes on comments is not possible unless you have 500 rep, but only 31 Karma, they can flag submissions — which is a super downvote and frequently abused, and Dang for sure is aware of this. Source for rep required to downvote or flag on HN: - https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented/blob/master/README.md#flaggingvouching https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented/blob/m...
  - warrenm 4y ago
    If "Flags are NOT votes" ... but "HN treats flags as votes" ...then flags ARE votes, friend :)
    - O__________O 4y ago
      Feel free to explain disconnect between downvotes requiring 500 rep - but flagging only requiring 31 rep.
      - warrenm 4y ago
        You can dislike the fact flags are votes But it doesn't change the fact that they are, mate :)
ClapperHeid 4y ago
>I feel like users abusing flags is toxic to the spirit of HN... But it's always going to happen. Same with the upvotes/downvotes. People will flag a post or downvote a comment they don't like, whether or not it happens to be true, relevant or accurate. The secret is not to let it bother you. At the end of the day your karma ratings here are just "internet points" and flagging or downvoting are just people proclaiming that "Someone is wrong on the internet!". It really is no different to Twitter or Reddit, in that regard. We just like to delude ourselves we're a cut above those kind of sites.
- O__________O 4y ago
  Down voting of submissions is not possible — unless a user flags a submission, which is NOT what flags are for, they’re for flagging the violation HN guidelines.
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    Some submissions are in foreign languages, which is a violation of HN guidelines. And some are spam, which also is. So, yes, flagging submissions is appropriate. You may say that it's used more broadly than that on submissions, but flagging submissions is not inherently wrong.
    - O__________O 4y ago
      Obviously there are numerous valid reasons to flag submissions, many of which Dang automatically does — issue is the invalid reasons.
O__________O 4y ago
And this submission is FLAGGED — how specifically is it a violation on HN’s guidelines? This is toxic - and claim that some how Dang is able to moderate the toxicity is telling — as is the claim the HN is a community based on spirit of curiosity and open reasoning. * Please feel free to click the timestamp for the submission then click “vouch” if you feel this submission should NOT be flagged; if it’s unclear how to do so, happy to try to make how more clear.
- dtagames 4y ago
  It's not surprising this is flagged. If you read the recommendations, discussions of downvoting (and flagging certainly counts) are not welcome because they're circular, uninteresting, and don't contribute positively to the site content. Why are only ranked users able to flag? My guess is that after someone invests enough time in HN to accumulate 500 karma, that person has some idea of the spirit of what's wanted here. Ads and job postings are certainly not, nor political flames, etc. So a "karma'd" user might spot that pretty quickly. I don't get out my flag flyswatter very often but when I do, it's because I'm trying to help keep the garden clean, so to speak.
  - O__________O 4y ago
    >> It's not surprising this is flagged. If you read the recommendations, discussions of downvoting (and flagging certainly counts) are not welcome because they're circular, uninteresting, and don't contribute positively to the site content. This applies to doing so as a response to within comment where the topic itself is NOT the abuse of flagging. >> Why are only ranked users able to flag? My guess is that after someone invests enough time in HN to accumulate 500 karma Only 31 rep is required to flag; this is mentioned numerous times already in the comments to this submission.
anenefan 4y ago
My two cents worth. The problem is this, is the person who only has low karma any less skilled in spotting a topic that isn't exactly fit for posting or discussing further, than one who has a lot more karma? Do those who have over 500 karma points, any better at remaining objective when they consider down voting a post? Introduce reasons and I expect the outcome won't be much different to forums where some people over use a report feature and just select what passes ... generally the acting mods soon realise there's a pattern but it takes time to deal with the BS - actually it's a real time cost. Presently as far as I see, the system at the moment discourages a user walking into hot topics where the ideologues aren't going to see reason anyhow, so there's little point to pile into the conversation. However if something inappropriate is submitted, a wider field of people can flag it. Sure some people might abuse it, but I would guess there's a list of flagged and dead submissions that staff can look over and review. Actually for the last week I've been following flagged and dead posts - nothing firm but many are nearly the same or on about the same subject that was posted a couple days before ... if not a few hours before, many are simply advertising their own site, and goodness knows why idiots keep posting here about gummy bears. Today was the first I vouched for a dead post, since it was the shiny flag why not vetting who advertises on a website is very bad ... or hard core porn ads will kill a safe for work or kids will be using it website / service.
- O__________O 4y ago
  >> Do those who have over 500 karma points, any better at remaining objective when they consider down voting a post? Understand your point, but ease of which abusing the system is to simple. I could easily automate creating 100s of accounts a week with a rep of 31, which is all that’s required to flag — and anyone that understands how flagging could even do this manually, if motivated. Gaining 500 rep though per account would take 16x the related rep. Realistically only measure of skill at flagging is skill at flagging; aka there should be a reputation system for flagging alone and any abuse of it should result in a ban for access to flagging or reviewing flags. >> but it takes time to deal with the BS - actually it's a real time cost. 100% agree, but then don’t claim HN is community base on the spirit of curiosity, open reasoning, etc. Further, I don’t believe for a second that if Dang requested help creating open source moderation tools that were able to be integrated into YC’s legacy code that community would not help or be reasonably, if forced to do so publicly. >> Actually for the last week I've been following flagged and dead posts Not aware of any way to see 100% of these without writing code to interface with API, am I missing something?
detaro 4y ago
> user is found to be abusing flags they should be ban from being allowed to use flags That's how it works.
- O__________O 4y ago
  Source?
  - detaro 4y ago
    dang has said so repeatedly, and I remember users talking about appealing to get their flagging permissions back.
    - O__________O 4y ago
      Thank you for the clarification, sincerely appreciate you taking the time to share your understanding.