3 ms·

Why do people have such a bias against using mice these days? You need to start somewhere, you aren't going to jump to all human studies for every single idea

Why do people have such a bias against using mice these days? You need to start somewhere, you aren't going to jump to all human studies for every single idea for an experiment.

gilrain 4y ago
For instance, many culturally significant sassafras products and their derivative safrole are still illegal on the basis of overly-broadly applied mouse studies. It was later discovered the harmful metabolite does not occur in humans. But the regulations still didn’t get rolled back. Enjoy your fake root beer. Edit: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0300483X77900397 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/030048...
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
  I'm pretty sure safrole is heavily regulated because it's a precursor for MDMA and other methylene dioxy modified phenethylamines, not because of some purported health effect.
  - gilrain 4y ago
    What source made you pretty sure about that? It was banned due to its supposed hepatotoxic effects in the 1960s. Can you find MDMA regulations that far back? I imagine the MDMA connection helps keep it banned, sure.
    - mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
      Huh, did not know that, my bad. It seems there are some other causes for concern with safrole that have not been disconfirmed in humans though. I'm seeing stuff about possible neurotoxity and immune effects as well. But yeah I'm sure no one is eager to lighten regulations anyway given the MDMA connection.
      - gilrain 4y ago
        > Despite this, the effects in humans were estimated by the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory to be similar to risks posed by breathing indoor air or drinking municipally supplied water. https://cpdb.thomas-slone.org/pdfs/herp.pdf https://cpdb.thomas-slone.org/pdfs/herp.pdf Ask yourself why you’re specifically invested in this chemical being harmful even though the actual scientific evidence and its prodigious use over thousands of years by indigenous peoples indicates that it is harmless. You are speaking like someone who values science, but your primary goal seems to be to reinforce an unscientific regulation. Is it so painful to consider that you (and the scientific establishment) were just wrong about this? Please cite your sources, since you are making claims contrary to established research.
        mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
        This source you gave is about carcinogenicity not neurotoxicity. I don't appreciate you suggesting I have some kind of ulterior motive or bias. I don't care if sassafras oil is legal or not, it doesn't matter to me. I do value science, and the fact that a culture has used a substance for a long time does not somehow preclude the notion that it could have toxic effects. Unless you want to argue that ethanol can't damage your liver either. Nor does the ruling out of one toxic effect preclude other mechanisms of toxicity. Induction of neuronal apoptosis in mice: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17188719/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17188719/ Inhibition of (human!) immune system: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12608906/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12608906/ None of these seem related to the metabolite that doesn't appear in humans.
        gilrain 4y ago
        Thank you! Now that you’ve provided sources, I can evaluate your claim. You’ll have to forgive me for treating you as unscientific — you began this debate by being “pretty sure” about something which was a chronological impossibility. That sort of hubris often indicates that science-ish misinformation is incoming. Thanks to your links, I found a better summary of the current health research on safrole: https://aacrjournals.org/cancerpreventionresearch/article/8/1/1/50342/Toxic-Phytochemicals-and-Their-Potential-Risks-for https://aacrjournals.org/cancerpreventionresearch/article/8/... If you search within that for safrole, a very thorough summary with many citations is provided. I’ve come away better informed, and will continue making root beer with confidence (the health concerns listed are slight; almost everything is similarly “dangerous”).
- gilrain 4y ago
  I want to note that this didn’t initially bother me because of fake root beer. Instead, it bothers me because scientists destroy their credibility by uncritically repeating the misinformation. In this case, I found that many native food plants which contain safrole (like sassafras and hoja santa) are inaccurately labeled and disregarded as “toxic”. This is ignorant misinformation, and the people who are familiar with those plants and use them every day trust scientists less as a result of their demonstrable ignorance.
kryogen1c 4y ago
> Why do people have such a bias against using mice these days? It's a problem of bad journalism coupled with lazy readership, aka "scientists dicover..." articles. This is a deeper problem than mice or science "journalism". There is some fundamental asymmetry in people's desire for information vs their capacity to understand information. Kind of like how I'm not a programmer or business owner but... here I am.
elif 4y ago
I think it's partially the consequence of covid fatigue. I went to college and got a science degree with people who I can no longer hold meaningful discussions about masks and vaccines. Perhaps it was the mixed messaging from the CDC in 2020, or the hesitancy to investigate lab origins. I know people who have gone full circle on both issues as their ideology evolved. People are primed to find "the reason" not to trust a scientific result they don't like and animal analogs are low hanging fruit you can grab without reading more than a sentence of a paper.
mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
There's nothing wrong with doing studies in mice. It just rarely carries over to humans, so personally I pay little attention to animal studies since most of them never go anywhere. That doesn't make the research invalid, but a certain bias against the ultimate applicability of animal studies is not only reasonable but empirically supported.

Why do people have such a bias against using mice these days? You need to start somewhere, you aren't going to jump to all human studies for every single idea for an experiment.

gilrain 4y ago

For instance, many culturally significant sassafras products and their derivative safrole are still illegal on the basis of overly-broadly applied mouse studies. It was later discovered the harmful metabolite does not occur in humans. But the regulations still didn’t get rolled back. Enjoy your fake root beer. Edit: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0300483X77900397 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/030048...

mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
I'm pretty sure safrole is heavily regulated because it's a precursor for MDMA and other methylene dioxy modified phenethylamines, not because of some purported health effect.
- gilrain 4y ago
  What source made you pretty sure about that? It was banned due to its supposed hepatotoxic effects in the 1960s. Can you find MDMA regulations that far back? I imagine the MDMA connection helps keep it banned, sure.
  - mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
    Huh, did not know that, my bad. It seems there are some other causes for concern with safrole that have not been disconfirmed in humans though. I'm seeing stuff about possible neurotoxity and immune effects as well. But yeah I'm sure no one is eager to lighten regulations anyway given the MDMA connection.
    - gilrain 4y ago
      > Despite this, the effects in humans were estimated by the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory to be similar to risks posed by breathing indoor air or drinking municipally supplied water. https://cpdb.thomas-slone.org/pdfs/herp.pdf https://cpdb.thomas-slone.org/pdfs/herp.pdf Ask yourself why you’re specifically invested in this chemical being harmful even though the actual scientific evidence and its prodigious use over thousands of years by indigenous peoples indicates that it is harmless. You are speaking like someone who values science, but your primary goal seems to be to reinforce an unscientific regulation. Is it so painful to consider that you (and the scientific establishment) were just wrong about this? Please cite your sources, since you are making claims contrary to established research.
      - mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
        This source you gave is about carcinogenicity not neurotoxicity. I don't appreciate you suggesting I have some kind of ulterior motive or bias. I don't care if sassafras oil is legal or not, it doesn't matter to me. I do value science, and the fact that a culture has used a substance for a long time does not somehow preclude the notion that it could have toxic effects. Unless you want to argue that ethanol can't damage your liver either. Nor does the ruling out of one toxic effect preclude other mechanisms of toxicity. Induction of neuronal apoptosis in mice: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17188719/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17188719/ Inhibition of (human!) immune system: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12608906/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12608906/ None of these seem related to the metabolite that doesn't appear in humans.
        gilrain 4y ago
        Thank you! Now that you’ve provided sources, I can evaluate your claim. You’ll have to forgive me for treating you as unscientific — you began this debate by being “pretty sure” about something which was a chronological impossibility. That sort of hubris often indicates that science-ish misinformation is incoming. Thanks to your links, I found a better summary of the current health research on safrole: https://aacrjournals.org/cancerpreventionresearch/article/8/1/1/50342/Toxic-Phytochemicals-and-Their-Potential-Risks-for https://aacrjournals.org/cancerpreventionresearch/article/8/... If you search within that for safrole, a very thorough summary with many citations is provided. I’ve come away better informed, and will continue making root beer with confidence (the health concerns listed are slight; almost everything is similarly “dangerous”).
gilrain 4y ago
I want to note that this didn’t initially bother me because of fake root beer. Instead, it bothers me because scientists destroy their credibility by uncritically repeating the misinformation. In this case, I found that many native food plants which contain safrole (like sassafras and hoja santa) are inaccurately labeled and disregarded as “toxic”. This is ignorant misinformation, and the people who are familiar with those plants and use them every day trust scientists less as a result of their demonstrable ignorance.

kryogen1c 4y ago

> Why do people have such a bias against using mice these days? It's a problem of bad journalism coupled with lazy readership, aka "scientists dicover..." articles. This is a deeper problem than mice or science "journalism". There is some fundamental asymmetry in people's desire for information vs their capacity to understand information. Kind of like how I'm not a programmer or business owner but... here I am.

elif 4y ago

I think it's partially the consequence of covid fatigue. I went to college and got a science degree with people who I can no longer hold meaningful discussions about masks and vaccines. Perhaps it was the mixed messaging from the CDC in 2020, or the hesitancy to investigate lab origins. I know people who have gone full circle on both issues as their ideology evolved. People are primed to find "the reason" not to trust a scientific result they don't like and animal analogs are low hanging fruit you can grab without reading more than a sentence of a paper.

mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago

There's nothing wrong with doing studies in mice. It just rarely carries over to humans, so personally I pay little attention to animal studies since most of them never go anywhere. That doesn't make the research invalid, but a certain bias against the ultimate applicability of animal studies is not only reasonable but empirically supported.