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I really appreciate the honesty, and I want to let you know that it's not just you. I personally don't work on AI, but I do feel betrayed by the industry that

I really appreciate the honesty, and I want to let you know that it's not just you. I personally don't work on AI, but I do feel betrayed by the industry that I felt so positive about in 2010 when I decided to join it. There are no easy answers, just a hard part for us to walk and learn from.

Filligree 4y ago
There's no learning possible. I've spent years learning to use what is—let's admit it—some immensely cool technology. I use it when writing, when programming, for illustrations... I use tools like ChatGPT daily for learning, or simply to play around with. If I admit that this was a mistake, and it should never have existed, then that would also be accepting that everything which provides some validation for my existence is a mistake, and I shouldn't be doing that. Yes, I accept the irony, but since I'm unwilling to cease existing, I cannot pick that path. Funnily, however? My interactions with the art community have been two-fold. First, people who agree that it's cool, and who enjoy the opportunity to add elements to their art that they couldn't have before; whether that be writers getting illustrations, or artists seeing their works in other styles, or... a whole range of options. Then, second, there's the people who start shouting at me and calling me evil when I try to bring gifts. Who jump into the personal insults when I'm trying to correct misconceptions. Who make it incredibly difficult to stay polite. This conversation is largely about the second group. And while I fully understand the worries brought up by GP, they've just about brought me to the point where I cease caring. I'm Scandinavian. I would never have argued that it's okay to outcompete people. That isn't how our society works. But when a group of people spend this much effort telling me we're two different communities, and they don't care if I go off and hang myself? Well, they shouldn't be surprised if I accept their point of view, and decide they're a different community. We spent so much time trying to put everyone in the same one, too. Fortunately there's still the first group.
- 1attice 4y ago
  Your complaint seems mostly to be about the tone of the people who are angry at you. Again, I invite you to consider if that anger occurs in a context that might make it be or seem justified. For example, many people are a little irate when they are on the cusp of losing nearly everything. Many people now perceive they are on the cusp of losing everything. Are they, really? I'd say, yeah, probably. Either way, your feelings about people who are angry at you are not as important as understanding those feelings, and understanding the feelings of the people who are angry at you. Go for the understanding. "I'm fatigued by the anger" is not an appropriate response to a circumstance where your team may in fact have done something very wrong. Are we the baddies? https://youtu.be/hn1VxaMEjRU https://youtu.be/hn1VxaMEjRU
  - Kim_Bruning 4y ago
    So far, what I've seen of Filigrees activities, they are not the baddies here.
    - 1attice 4y ago
      You missed the 'we'. I meant: is our industry benefitting by eating other industries? The answer seems to be "yes, obviously." Does that make us the baddies?
  - p_l 4y ago
    To add some context... Filligree's "sin" was the audacity to use AI generated art in their fiction writing, instead of paying commission, and being opposed to proposal for banning AI art where they posted said writings, with argument for ban being that "AI art is inherently theft, immoral and evil", with no possibility of ethical use accepted. Funnily enough, proposal was from someone who earned a lot of money by violating technically the same aspects of copyright, except harder (fan-art is much more of a derivative work than training a model where each individual image might have added ~2bits to the model). Personally I'll add that I do not remember anything other than neutrality or more or less concealed glee from the same corners when the discussion was about how outsourcing and the like would eradicate my source of income, which arguably makes it much more to feel positive thoughts towards people advocating such proposals. So, with regards to whether Filligree is with the baddies... I recommend not invoking Godwin for puny things.

Filligree 4y ago

There's no learning possible. I've spent years learning to use what is—let's admit it—some immensely cool technology. I use it when writing, when programming, for illustrations... I use tools like ChatGPT daily for learning, or simply to play around with. If I admit that this was a mistake, and it should never have existed, then that would also be accepting that everything which provides some validation for my existence is a mistake, and I shouldn't be doing that. Yes, I accept the irony, but since I'm unwilling to cease existing, I cannot pick that path. Funnily, however? My interactions with the art community have been two-fold. First, people who agree that it's cool, and who enjoy the opportunity to add elements to their art that they couldn't have before; whether that be writers getting illustrations, or artists seeing their works in other styles, or... a whole range of options. Then, second, there's the people who start shouting at me and calling me evil when I try to bring gifts. Who jump into the personal insults when I'm trying to correct misconceptions. Who make it incredibly difficult to stay polite. This conversation is largely about the second group. And while I fully understand the worries brought up by GP, they've just about brought me to the point where I cease caring. I'm Scandinavian. I would never have argued that it's okay to outcompete people. That isn't how our society works. But when a group of people spend this much effort telling me we're two different communities, and they don't care if I go off and hang myself? Well, they shouldn't be surprised if I accept their point of view, and decide they're a different community. We spent so much time trying to put everyone in the same one, too. Fortunately there's still the first group.

1attice 4y ago
Your complaint seems mostly to be about the tone of the people who are angry at you. Again, I invite you to consider if that anger occurs in a context that might make it be or seem justified. For example, many people are a little irate when they are on the cusp of losing nearly everything. Many people now perceive they are on the cusp of losing everything. Are they, really? I'd say, yeah, probably. Either way, your feelings about people who are angry at you are not as important as understanding those feelings, and understanding the feelings of the people who are angry at you. Go for the understanding. "I'm fatigued by the anger" is not an appropriate response to a circumstance where your team may in fact have done something very wrong. Are we the baddies? https://youtu.be/hn1VxaMEjRU https://youtu.be/hn1VxaMEjRU
- Kim_Bruning 4y ago
  So far, what I've seen of Filigrees activities, they are not the baddies here.
  - 1attice 4y ago
    You missed the 'we'. I meant: is our industry benefitting by eating other industries? The answer seems to be "yes, obviously." Does that make us the baddies?
- p_l 4y ago
  To add some context... Filligree's "sin" was the audacity to use AI generated art in their fiction writing, instead of paying commission, and being opposed to proposal for banning AI art where they posted said writings, with argument for ban being that "AI art is inherently theft, immoral and evil", with no possibility of ethical use accepted. Funnily enough, proposal was from someone who earned a lot of money by violating technically the same aspects of copyright, except harder (fan-art is much more of a derivative work than training a model where each individual image might have added ~2bits to the model). Personally I'll add that I do not remember anything other than neutrality or more or less concealed glee from the same corners when the discussion was about how outsourcing and the like would eradicate my source of income, which arguably makes it much more to feel positive thoughts towards people advocating such proposals. So, with regards to whether Filligree is with the baddies... I recommend not invoking Godwin for puny things.