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Moreover, if your personal code of ethics permits hurting other people, you may need to contemplate revising your personal code of ethics. (Excluding edge case

Moreover, if your personal code of ethics permits hurting other people, you may need to contemplate revising your personal code of ethics. (Excluding edge cases such as kink or vengance.)

Kim_Bruning 4y ago
I'm going to have to think that one through very carefully. Is there a location where I could come back and discuss this further with you at a later date?
- 1attice 4y ago
  I'm Lattice#7879 on Discord.
  - Kim_Bruning 4y ago
    (I think you need to accept friend request to be able to talk on discord)
  - Kim_Bruning 4y ago
    Kim#4411
Filligree 4y ago
People can be mistaken. My own code of ethics never allowed for that. However, I thought that generating pictures locally and using them in my stories, or showing off cool technology, or getting AI assistance with improving my skill at English, were not things that directly hurt other people. Now it turns out that this is not the case, as the last couple of months have showed, and I find myself in a situation where my work, my hobbies, and my intrinsic existence are all at odds with the rest of humanity. Something will have to break. I'm not sure what, yet. I'm tired of being shouted at, but it's too late in my life to completely rethink my skillset.
- amrocha 4y ago
  I really appreciate the honesty, and I want to let you know that it's not just you. I personally don't work on AI, but I do feel betrayed by the industry that I felt so positive about in 2010 when I decided to join it. There are no easy answers, just a hard part for us to walk and learn from.
  - Filligree 4y ago
    There's no learning possible. I've spent years learning to use what is—let's admit it—some immensely cool technology. I use it when writing, when programming, for illustrations... I use tools like ChatGPT daily for learning, or simply to play around with. If I admit that this was a mistake, and it should never have existed, then that would also be accepting that everything which provides some validation for my existence is a mistake, and I shouldn't be doing that. Yes, I accept the irony, but since I'm unwilling to cease existing, I cannot pick that path. Funnily, however? My interactions with the art community have been two-fold. First, people who agree that it's cool, and who enjoy the opportunity to add elements to their art that they couldn't have before; whether that be writers getting illustrations, or artists seeing their works in other styles, or... a whole range of options. Then, second, there's the people who start shouting at me and calling me evil when I try to bring gifts. Who jump into the personal insults when I'm trying to correct misconceptions. Who make it incredibly difficult to stay polite. This conversation is largely about the second group. And while I fully understand the worries brought up by GP, they've just about brought me to the point where I cease caring. I'm Scandinavian. I would never have argued that it's okay to outcompete people. That isn't how our society works. But when a group of people spend this much effort telling me we're two different communities, and they don't care if I go off and hang myself? Well, they shouldn't be surprised if I accept their point of view, and decide they're a different community. We spent so much time trying to put everyone in the same one, too. Fortunately there's still the first group.
    - 1attice 4y ago
      Your complaint seems mostly to be about the tone of the people who are angry at you. Again, I invite you to consider if that anger occurs in a context that might make it be or seem justified. For example, many people are a little irate when they are on the cusp of losing nearly everything. Many people now perceive they are on the cusp of losing everything. Are they, really? I'd say, yeah, probably. Either way, your feelings about people who are angry at you are not as important as understanding those feelings, and understanding the feelings of the people who are angry at you. Go for the understanding. "I'm fatigued by the anger" is not an appropriate response to a circumstance where your team may in fact have done something very wrong. Are we the baddies? https://youtu.be/hn1VxaMEjRU https://youtu.be/hn1VxaMEjRU
amanaplanacanal 4y ago
Everything we do is to provide some service faster, better, or cheaper than the existing providers do it, and if we succeed, those people are going to be hurt. Do people not understand this?
none_to_remain 4y ago
I find that sentence so unconsidered it hurts
sebzim4500 4y ago
Is it unethical to apply for a job, preventing someone else from getting the position? I want to know how far you take this 'permits hurting other people', because if me making a picture of Trump riding a unicycle counts then so should basically everything.
- 1attice 4y ago
  No, of course not. These are some of the edge cases I alluded to (did you read both paragraphs?) Political cartoons of erstwhile dictators and competitions for employment are exactly such edge cases. What you are groping towards is an attempt to find absurd counterexamples that throws doubt on the principle being proposed. This is fine, provided that your interlocutor didn't specifically allow for those counterexamples (which she did.) If, as a general rule, your ethic permits you to ceteris-paribus harm others, you should probably at least examine your ethic. That this sort of baseline humanism is now controversial speaks volumes about our cultural debasement.

Moreover, if your personal code of ethics permits hurting other people, you may need to contemplate revising your personal code of ethics. (Excluding edge cases such as kink or vengance.)

Kim_Bruning 4y ago

I'm going to have to think that one through very carefully. Is there a location where I could come back and discuss this further with you at a later date?

1attice 4y ago
I'm Lattice#7879 on Discord.
- Kim_Bruning 4y ago
  (I think you need to accept friend request to be able to talk on discord)
- Kim_Bruning 4y ago
  Kim#4411

Filligree 4y ago

People can be mistaken. My own code of ethics never allowed for that. However, I thought that generating pictures locally and using them in my stories, or showing off cool technology, or getting AI assistance with improving my skill at English, were not things that directly hurt other people. Now it turns out that this is not the case, as the last couple of months have showed, and I find myself in a situation where my work, my hobbies, and my intrinsic existence are all at odds with the rest of humanity. Something will have to break. I'm not sure what, yet. I'm tired of being shouted at, but it's too late in my life to completely rethink my skillset.

amrocha 4y ago
I really appreciate the honesty, and I want to let you know that it's not just you. I personally don't work on AI, but I do feel betrayed by the industry that I felt so positive about in 2010 when I decided to join it. There are no easy answers, just a hard part for us to walk and learn from.
- Filligree 4y ago
  There's no learning possible. I've spent years learning to use what is—let's admit it—some immensely cool technology. I use it when writing, when programming, for illustrations... I use tools like ChatGPT daily for learning, or simply to play around with. If I admit that this was a mistake, and it should never have existed, then that would also be accepting that everything which provides some validation for my existence is a mistake, and I shouldn't be doing that. Yes, I accept the irony, but since I'm unwilling to cease existing, I cannot pick that path. Funnily, however? My interactions with the art community have been two-fold. First, people who agree that it's cool, and who enjoy the opportunity to add elements to their art that they couldn't have before; whether that be writers getting illustrations, or artists seeing their works in other styles, or... a whole range of options. Then, second, there's the people who start shouting at me and calling me evil when I try to bring gifts. Who jump into the personal insults when I'm trying to correct misconceptions. Who make it incredibly difficult to stay polite. This conversation is largely about the second group. And while I fully understand the worries brought up by GP, they've just about brought me to the point where I cease caring. I'm Scandinavian. I would never have argued that it's okay to outcompete people. That isn't how our society works. But when a group of people spend this much effort telling me we're two different communities, and they don't care if I go off and hang myself? Well, they shouldn't be surprised if I accept their point of view, and decide they're a different community. We spent so much time trying to put everyone in the same one, too. Fortunately there's still the first group.
  - 1attice 4y ago
    Your complaint seems mostly to be about the tone of the people who are angry at you. Again, I invite you to consider if that anger occurs in a context that might make it be or seem justified. For example, many people are a little irate when they are on the cusp of losing nearly everything. Many people now perceive they are on the cusp of losing everything. Are they, really? I'd say, yeah, probably. Either way, your feelings about people who are angry at you are not as important as understanding those feelings, and understanding the feelings of the people who are angry at you. Go for the understanding. "I'm fatigued by the anger" is not an appropriate response to a circumstance where your team may in fact have done something very wrong. Are we the baddies? https://youtu.be/hn1VxaMEjRU https://youtu.be/hn1VxaMEjRU

amanaplanacanal 4y ago

Everything we do is to provide some service faster, better, or cheaper than the existing providers do it, and if we succeed, those people are going to be hurt. Do people not understand this?

none_to_remain 4y ago

I find that sentence so unconsidered it hurts

sebzim4500 4y ago

Is it unethical to apply for a job, preventing someone else from getting the position? I want to know how far you take this 'permits hurting other people', because if me making a picture of Trump riding a unicycle counts then so should basically everything.

1attice 4y ago
No, of course not. These are some of the edge cases I alluded to (did you read both paragraphs?) Political cartoons of erstwhile dictators and competitions for employment are exactly such edge cases. What you are groping towards is an attempt to find absurd counterexamples that throws doubt on the principle being proposed. This is fine, provided that your interlocutor didn't specifically allow for those counterexamples (which she did.) If, as a general rule, your ethic permits you to ceteris-paribus harm others, you should probably at least examine your ethic. That this sort of baseline humanism is now controversial speaks volumes about our cultural debasement.