8 ms·

The following contains hyperbole; please interpret words like "everybody" appropriately. What's annoying about the AI art zeitgeist is how dramatic and frankly

by dymk 4y ago

The following contains hyperbole; please interpret words like "everybody" appropriately. What's annoying about the AI art zeitgeist is how dramatic and frankly mean everybody is about it, on both sides. And then the sheer ignorance about how AI models work, again, from people on both sides of this stupid internet fight-of-the-month (year?). It's always something on one side of "AI art is the future and artists should stop whining that they're obsolete!" or "AI tech-bros are literally stealing in a way fundamentally different than all prior art consumption!". Everybody is talking past each other. Using (or not using) an ML model to do anything nowadays is politicized like mask wearing. Glaze is, at its core, a GAN. The key word is "adversarial", and it will be defeated in... already, looks like.

klodolph 4y ago
It's far from everybody. You're just hearing from the loudest, most amplified voices on the internet.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
rippercushions 4y ago
And how is this rant connected to the rather interesting application of AI countermeasures in the article?
- dymk 4y ago
  > Glaze is, at its core, a GAN. The key word is "adversarial", and it will be defeated in... already, looks like. As for the rant: the AI art horse is being beat to death, and it's boring to see the same arguments made past each other over and over. Sorry, sometimes it feels good to rant.
Last5Digits 4y ago
This was cathartic to read. The almost complete lack of calm, productive discussion about AI is honestly frightening. No matter where you land on this issue, you have to admit that there is a credible chance of significant societal changes in the near future. But instead of discussing how to best manage these changes or how to support people who may be negatively affected, we waste our time with petty squabbles.
- tjs8rj 4y ago
  It's not exactly a both-sides thing. I don't have a strong opinion on the topic, but the side with the gun is the AI art generator side (not the artists). The artists are saying "stop" and the AI side is saying "you can't make me". One side would love a pause to have a productive discussion, and the other side doesn't want a pause at all.
  - genericone 4y ago
    One side is horses, the other side is automobiles. Horses continue to exist, but automobiles were the inevitable future. The horse side would have loved the auto side to pause and discuss too, and say 'think of all the horse related jobs, culture, and infrastructure at risk'.
    - eropple 4y ago
      One side may be automobiles. The other side are human beings. If you don't immediately and intuitively grasp the moral weight of drawing comparisons between animals and humans in this context, perhaps you can at least understand why you're hated for it. "Let's just screw over everybody who we can grind between the gears of our APIs because ha ha, they can't stop us" is not a recipe for a functioning society.
      - gwoolhurme 4y ago
        It really sucks to be compared to a horse. It goes to the mentality of this that gives me such anxiety. I understand to my boss I am just a cog (horse), but damn… a bit of compassion would be nice before I’m turned to glue.
      - satvikpendem 4y ago
        And to extend your analogy further, humans use automobiles. Just like cars are tools for humans, so too are AI.
      - dragonwriter 4y ago
gwoolhurme 4y ago
Agreed, however I'd like to add it's not just art, it's a lot of other facets of the dawn of the LLM(s). Unfortunately I don't see a slowdown in talking past each other. It would be really nice to sit down and rationally talk about what we should do for translators, artists, even programmers, and what we should do as time goes on. Because the hyperbole just creates more anxiety. To be honest, I don't have any good solutions but it would be nice to talk about what can be done.
- XorNot 4y ago
  The ship came and went with translators: nobody cared. The people currently angry didn't care, they didn't even think about it. The reality is there's a whole group of people right now who's real problem is they didn't see this coming. AI, as always, was meant to destroy people in minimum wage jobs first. Because they're unskilled right? That's why they're minimum wage? Right? But art, creativity. Machines can't do that! It's a classic science fiction trope, how could it be wrong? The irreducible nature of the human spirit is represented in art, it's not paid well but it'll totally be safe from automation. Bricklayers, electricians and plumbers are going to be making decent money putting up buildings while the white-collar specialists get downsized due to automation. Any job done from a sitting position in front of a computer should be keeping in mind just how replaceable you actually are.
  - gwoolhurme 4y ago
    I don’t disagree, but my question still stands. Besides every single desk worker learning a trade. What else can we do? Right? We are saying the same thing. You are right nobody cared when it upended a lot of translation. You are right people didn’t care because it was going to effect “low skill” jobs. Okay, now that we have that out of the way. What is a proposed solution? UBI? That’s fine and dandy but what does every desk worker on a working visa do? Go home? Is that viable? I’ve said in this post, I don’t have any solutions, all I see is real hurt and anxiety. Should we have cared before? Yes, I get that.
    - XorNot 4y ago
King-Aaron 4y ago
> how dramatic and frankly mean everybody is about it I notice this in almost every topical discussion on the internet these days. People have seemingly lost the ability to have rational discussion.
1attice 4y ago
[EDIT: 2023-03-19@20:12PDT : s/esteem/respect/g, to match Rawls' usage.] The anger you notice is not context-free. People are shouty because: - There are livelihoods at stake - Worse, there are systems of respect at stake, many of which underwrite people (artists, coders, etc) feeling good about themselves. Rawls is a great reference point for this; feeling like you can contribute meaningfully (in a way that is meaningful for you) is one of the prereqs for social stability (said Rawls: https://academic.oup.com/book/32571/chapter-abstract/270366531?redirectedFrom=fulltext https://academic.oup.com/book/32571/chapter-abstract/2703665...) - We tech bros (or bras, in my case) do have a notable pattern of disrupting-for-profit. I mean, even middlebrow fare like _Glass Onion_ now casts us as villains at worst, and stooges and best, and it would be good to slow down for a moment to consider if they might be seeing something real about us. (Ask an NYC taxi medallion holder.) - Creatives, especially, were already at a profound breaking point, one that is not easily communicated to those outside the disciplines in question; see https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/53935644-the-death-of-the-artist?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=wKq5DCjsHd&rank=1 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/53935644-the-death-of-th... . It was created by, yes, our industry, and began in the nineties, before at least some of the readership here was born, and picked up steam ever decade thereafter. Much like the early days of climate change reportage in oil/gas sector, the historic & intersubjectively verifiable externalities of our industry's (frankly incredible) progress feel ego-dystonic. It doesn't seem fair that something as fun as what we do could cause immiseration. This --- to draw a tidy circle --- is because tech progress is part of our self-respect. And non-harming is part of most non-sociopathic self-respect, including our own. This is, in a word, a threat to our sense of self. A threat to our identity, and worse, a risk of moral injury. 'Moral injury' -- the harm to the self that comes from having done something wrong or harmful to someone else -- is one of the most profound roots of, e.g. PTSD in soldiers, and most humans intuitively avoid it at any cost. One inefficient way of avoiding it is to avoid admitting that you did anything wrong, for example, by shouting back that you didn't do anything wrong. In the long term, this works out about as well as you'd expect. -- A quick closing word about the comments on the parent that advocate a sensible calm sit-down to work out solutions: People are absolutely not going to have a quiet sit-down about how to fix this problem because we all know full well that very few liberal democracies remain functional enough to stickhandle everyone through such an enormous change. The USA, for example, can barely pass a budget; you think that you can get UBI through? Which would still do nothing about that Rawlsian self-respect, which, again, is just as significant to a healthy human as air, water, or food (and is therefore vital to social stability, in the same way that a steady supply of food is vital.) Shouting is one of the few avenues left for self-expression, and thus, self-respect. No one wants to go quietly, and 'going' -- whether it be from a job, a career, a family, or even a home -- is quite clearly what is now in the cards for a great many. And they are shouting at us because we do this shit on the regular. But never like this before. We went large with it. Did we ever.
minimaxir 4y ago
Ironically, the drama provides an incentive for people using AI art tools productively (which includes artists by trade) to just not talk about it and cause the drama to continue to perpetuate.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

by dymk 4y ago

klodolph 4y ago

It's far from everybody. You're just hearing from the loudest, most amplified voices on the internet.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

rippercushions 4y ago

And how is this rant connected to the rather interesting application of AI countermeasures in the article?

dymk 4y ago
> Glaze is, at its core, a GAN. The key word is "adversarial", and it will be defeated in... already, looks like. As for the rant: the AI art horse is being beat to death, and it's boring to see the same arguments made past each other over and over. Sorry, sometimes it feels good to rant.

Last5Digits 4y ago

This was cathartic to read. The almost complete lack of calm, productive discussion about AI is honestly frightening. No matter where you land on this issue, you have to admit that there is a credible chance of significant societal changes in the near future. But instead of discussing how to best manage these changes or how to support people who may be negatively affected, we waste our time with petty squabbles.

tjs8rj 4y ago
It's not exactly a both-sides thing. I don't have a strong opinion on the topic, but the side with the gun is the AI art generator side (not the artists). The artists are saying "stop" and the AI side is saying "you can't make me". One side would love a pause to have a productive discussion, and the other side doesn't want a pause at all.
- genericone 4y ago
  One side is horses, the other side is automobiles. Horses continue to exist, but automobiles were the inevitable future. The horse side would have loved the auto side to pause and discuss too, and say 'think of all the horse related jobs, culture, and infrastructure at risk'.
  - eropple 4y ago
    One side may be automobiles. The other side are human beings. If you don't immediately and intuitively grasp the moral weight of drawing comparisons between animals and humans in this context, perhaps you can at least understand why you're hated for it. "Let's just screw over everybody who we can grind between the gears of our APIs because ha ha, they can't stop us" is not a recipe for a functioning society.
    - gwoolhurme 4y ago
      It really sucks to be compared to a horse. It goes to the mentality of this that gives me such anxiety. I understand to my boss I am just a cog (horse), but damn… a bit of compassion would be nice before I’m turned to glue.
    - satvikpendem 4y ago
      And to extend your analogy further, humans use automobiles. Just like cars are tools for humans, so too are AI.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago

gwoolhurme 4y ago

Agreed, however I'd like to add it's not just art, it's a lot of other facets of the dawn of the LLM(s). Unfortunately I don't see a slowdown in talking past each other. It would be really nice to sit down and rationally talk about what we should do for translators, artists, even programmers, and what we should do as time goes on. Because the hyperbole just creates more anxiety. To be honest, I don't have any good solutions but it would be nice to talk about what can be done.

XorNot 4y ago
The ship came and went with translators: nobody cared. The people currently angry didn't care, they didn't even think about it. The reality is there's a whole group of people right now who's real problem is they didn't see this coming. AI, as always, was meant to destroy people in minimum wage jobs first. Because they're unskilled right? That's why they're minimum wage? Right? But art, creativity. Machines can't do that! It's a classic science fiction trope, how could it be wrong? The irreducible nature of the human spirit is represented in art, it's not paid well but it'll totally be safe from automation. Bricklayers, electricians and plumbers are going to be making decent money putting up buildings while the white-collar specialists get downsized due to automation. Any job done from a sitting position in front of a computer should be keeping in mind just how replaceable you actually are.
- gwoolhurme 4y ago
  I don’t disagree, but my question still stands. Besides every single desk worker learning a trade. What else can we do? Right? We are saying the same thing. You are right nobody cared when it upended a lot of translation. You are right people didn’t care because it was going to effect “low skill” jobs. Okay, now that we have that out of the way. What is a proposed solution? UBI? That’s fine and dandy but what does every desk worker on a working visa do? Go home? Is that viable? I’ve said in this post, I don’t have any solutions, all I see is real hurt and anxiety. Should we have cared before? Yes, I get that.
  - XorNot 4y ago

King-Aaron 4y ago

> how dramatic and frankly mean everybody is about it I notice this in almost every topical discussion on the internet these days. People have seemingly lost the ability to have rational discussion.

1attice 4y ago

[EDIT: 2023-03-19@20:12PDT : s/esteem/respect/g, to match Rawls' usage.] The anger you notice is not context-free. People are shouty because: - There are livelihoods at stake - Worse, there are systems of respect at stake, many of which underwrite people (artists, coders, etc) feeling good about themselves. Rawls is a great reference point for this; feeling like you can contribute meaningfully (in a way that is meaningful for you) is one of the prereqs for social stability (said Rawls: https://academic.oup.com/book/32571/chapter-abstract/270366531?redirectedFrom=fulltext https://academic.oup.com/book/32571/chapter-abstract/2703665...) - We tech bros (or bras, in my case) do have a notable pattern of disrupting-for-profit. I mean, even middlebrow fare like _Glass Onion_ now casts us as villains at worst, and stooges and best, and it would be good to slow down for a moment to consider if they might be seeing something real about us. (Ask an NYC taxi medallion holder.) - Creatives, especially, were already at a profound breaking point, one that is not easily communicated to those outside the disciplines in question; see https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/53935644-the-death-of-the-artist?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=wKq5DCjsHd&rank=1 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/53935644-the-death-of-th... . It was created by, yes, our industry, and began in the nineties, before at least some of the readership here was born, and picked up steam ever decade thereafter. Much like the early days of climate change reportage in oil/gas sector, the historic & intersubjectively verifiable externalities of our industry's (frankly incredible) progress feel ego-dystonic. It doesn't seem fair that something as fun as what we do could cause immiseration. This --- to draw a tidy circle --- is because tech progress is part of our self-respect. And non-harming is part of most non-sociopathic self-respect, including our own. This is, in a word, a threat to our sense of self. A threat to our identity, and worse, a risk of moral injury. 'Moral injury' -- the harm to the self that comes from having done something wrong or harmful to someone else -- is one of the most profound roots of, e.g. PTSD in soldiers, and most humans intuitively avoid it at any cost. One inefficient way of avoiding it is to avoid admitting that you did anything wrong, for example, by shouting back that you didn't do anything wrong. In the long term, this works out about as well as you'd expect. -- A quick closing word about the comments on the parent that advocate a sensible calm sit-down to work out solutions: People are absolutely not going to have a quiet sit-down about how to fix this problem because we all know full well that very few liberal democracies remain functional enough to stickhandle everyone through such an enormous change. The USA, for example, can barely pass a budget; you think that you can get UBI through? Which would still do nothing about that Rawlsian self-respect, which, again, is just as significant to a healthy human as air, water, or food (and is therefore vital to social stability, in the same way that a steady supply of food is vital.) Shouting is one of the few avenues left for self-expression, and thus, self-respect. No one wants to go quietly, and 'going' -- whether it be from a job, a career, a family, or even a home -- is quite clearly what is now in the cards for a great many. And they are shouting at us because we do this shit on the regular. But never like this before. We went large with it. Did we ever.

minimaxir 4y ago

Ironically, the drama provides an incentive for people using AI art tools productively (which includes artists by trade) to just not talk about it and cause the drama to continue to perpetuate.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]