5 ms·

Google Professor Philip Stark and read some of the papers he publishes about the dangers of electronic voting machines.

hayst4ck 4y ago
https://oar.princeton.edu/bitstream/88435/pr1qj9r/1/BallotMarkingDeviceVoters.pdf https://oar.princeton.edu/bitstream/88435/pr1qj9r/1/BallotMa... This is probably the main paper you are referencing?
fortuna86 4y ago
If you audit every election after they are done, what is the danger of using electric voting machines ?
- hayst4ck 4y ago
  This might sound snide, but I assure you I am asking in good faith to prove a point. What does it mean to audit the election, without skipping the complexity? A few questions I would expect to be answered: How do we know all votes cast were legitimate? How do we know that the voting machines recorded votes correctly? How do we know the auditors are good faith actors? How do we know ballots weren't lost/delayed (mail in)? How do we know legitimate looking votes were cast by the right person? My overall assertion is not that we can't know. It's that voting is so complex that this can't be easily explained in a satisfying way to (or by) a layman. It's so complex that "trust" is a core part of the election process. Should I have to take a quarter long class in election mechanics to be satisfied that our voting system is legitimate? That's a bit of hyperbole, but I truly don't know how our elections work and I don't think I could understand them in an afternoon and it doesn't have to be that way. Taiwan's elections are simple and self-evident. American elections are extremely complex and require trust in institutions. Taiwan's elections optimize for trust. America's elections optimize for cost. Trust is priceless. I really would like an explanation of what audit means. I am open to the idea of being surprised by a satisfying answer, but I am also asking because I don't think the answer will be satisfying.
  - fortuna86 4y ago
    > I really would like an explanation of what audit means. I am open to the idea of being surprised by a satisfying answer, but I am also asking because I don't think the answer will be satisfying. Every electronic vote has a physical record, and is checked against each other. Fraud/mistakes occur, but never at the scale to shift any election. More: https://www.eac.gov/election-officials/election-audits-across-united-states https://www.eac.gov/election-officials/election-audits-acros...
    - hayst4ck 4y ago
      That's an hour long technical read. Do you think your average person with high school or a GED as their highest level of education or less, ~40% of the country, is going to be able to read such a meaty document and make sense of it? 8% of Americans are basically illiterate. 54% read below a 6th grade level. I am not trying to attack you with that statement. This is a statement form one liberal to someone else I perceive as liberal leaning: Your education privilege is off the charts. We could have a system like Taiwan, but instead we have an electronic voting system. How do they compare and contrast? Why were electronic voting machines pushed on us? Which one has better understand-ability properties? Which one has better trust properties? What are the properties of electronic voting machines that make them desirable? Why do we have to convince people that voting machines are good (implying a lot of people don't think they are)?
      - fortuna86 4y ago
        > but instead we have an electronic voting system We don't. As said, every electronic vote has a physical backup that is audited.
    - hayst4ck 4y ago
      > Fraud/mistakes occur, but never at the scale to shift any election. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_close_election_results https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_close_election_results
      - 4y ago
- specialist 4y ago
  Fully electronic voting cannot be inspected sufficiently to audit. Too many points of failure, too many blackboxes, no way to detect failures. This has been thoroughly, repeatedly, exhaustively researched and debated. Which is why most jurisdictions (in the USA) have returned to paper ballots.
  - fortuna86 4y ago
    Most electronic ballots still carry paper or otherwise physical verification.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

https://oar.princeton.edu/bitstream/88435/pr1qj9r/1/BallotMarkingDeviceVoters.pdf https://oar.princeton.edu/bitstream/88435/pr1qj9r/1/BallotMa... This is probably the main paper you are referencing?

fortuna86 4y ago

If you audit every election after they are done, what is the danger of using electric voting machines ?

hayst4ck 4y ago
This might sound snide, but I assure you I am asking in good faith to prove a point. What does it mean to audit the election, without skipping the complexity? A few questions I would expect to be answered: How do we know all votes cast were legitimate? How do we know that the voting machines recorded votes correctly? How do we know the auditors are good faith actors? How do we know ballots weren't lost/delayed (mail in)? How do we know legitimate looking votes were cast by the right person? My overall assertion is not that we can't know. It's that voting is so complex that this can't be easily explained in a satisfying way to (or by) a layman. It's so complex that "trust" is a core part of the election process. Should I have to take a quarter long class in election mechanics to be satisfied that our voting system is legitimate? That's a bit of hyperbole, but I truly don't know how our elections work and I don't think I could understand them in an afternoon and it doesn't have to be that way. Taiwan's elections are simple and self-evident. American elections are extremely complex and require trust in institutions. Taiwan's elections optimize for trust. America's elections optimize for cost. Trust is priceless. I really would like an explanation of what audit means. I am open to the idea of being surprised by a satisfying answer, but I am also asking because I don't think the answer will be satisfying.
- fortuna86 4y ago
  > I really would like an explanation of what audit means. I am open to the idea of being surprised by a satisfying answer, but I am also asking because I don't think the answer will be satisfying. Every electronic vote has a physical record, and is checked against each other. Fraud/mistakes occur, but never at the scale to shift any election. More: https://www.eac.gov/election-officials/election-audits-across-united-states https://www.eac.gov/election-officials/election-audits-acros...
  - hayst4ck 4y ago
    That's an hour long technical read. Do you think your average person with high school or a GED as their highest level of education or less, ~40% of the country, is going to be able to read such a meaty document and make sense of it? 8% of Americans are basically illiterate. 54% read below a 6th grade level. I am not trying to attack you with that statement. This is a statement form one liberal to someone else I perceive as liberal leaning: Your education privilege is off the charts. We could have a system like Taiwan, but instead we have an electronic voting system. How do they compare and contrast? Why were electronic voting machines pushed on us? Which one has better understand-ability properties? Which one has better trust properties? What are the properties of electronic voting machines that make them desirable? Why do we have to convince people that voting machines are good (implying a lot of people don't think they are)?
    - fortuna86 4y ago
      > but instead we have an electronic voting system We don't. As said, every electronic vote has a physical backup that is audited.
  - hayst4ck 4y ago
    > Fraud/mistakes occur, but never at the scale to shift any election. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_close_election_results https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_close_election_results
    - 4y ago
specialist 4y ago
Fully electronic voting cannot be inspected sufficiently to audit. Too many points of failure, too many blackboxes, no way to detect failures. This has been thoroughly, repeatedly, exhaustively researched and debated. Which is why most jurisdictions (in the USA) have returned to paper ballots.
- fortuna86 4y ago
  Most electronic ballots still carry paper or otherwise physical verification.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]