3 ms·

Do we really need more preachers? Eventually, almost everyone figures out for themselves what makes them happy and what doesn't. Moreover, there are plenty of

by lapcat 4y ago

Do we really need more preachers? Eventually, almost everyone figures out for themselves what makes them happy and what doesn't. Moreover, there are plenty of unmarried people who aren't against marriage, who indeed want to get married, but their life circumstances haven't resulted in marriage, for various reasons. They don't need preachers.

ip26 4y ago
Keeping universal insight a secret and expecting everyone to figure it out for themselves seems oppressive to me. Suppose nobody told you how difficult single parenthood is out of consideration for all the single parents, and you therefore decided to adopt. You figure it out two years later. Years have gone by, and dating is now very difficult. Is this somehow progressive!?
- lapcat 4y ago
  > Keeping universal insight a secret Marriage is hardly a secret. > Suppose nobody told you how difficult single parenthood is I think you can guess. Anyway, that's not a secret either. People are aware of these things. The options are not sermonization or censorship; that's a false dichotomy.
  - ip26 4y ago
    Sure, people guess. And I expect most still underestimate it by a country mile. It isn’t very openly discussed, because no one wants to impinge involuntarily single-parenthood households. Being vaguely aware that “single-parenthood is harder than two-parenthood” does not count as informed.
    - lapcat 4y ago
      > It isn’t very openly discussed We're openly discussing it right now. I'm truly baffled by the idea that it isn't openly discussed.
      - lodi 4y ago
        GP isn't saying that this topic is literally censored; he's saying that discussing it is taboo, and increasingly so.
        lapcat 4y ago
        > he's saying that discussing it is taboo, and increasingly so. It's not though. There's no evidence of that. In fact, the very claim "no one wants to impinge involuntarily single-parenthood households" is itself an ironic admission that the difficulties of single-parent households are obvious to everyone.
numbers_guy 4y ago
Preachers, teachers, what's the difference, besides the connotation you want to attach? I believe I had good parents, but I still did lots of mistakes, costly mistakes that I wish I did not make. I am determined to teach all I can to my future children, if any, so that they don't have to learn it all by themselves again. I think it is only sensible that such teachings are spread society wide, for children who have no good parental figures.
- lapcat 4y ago
  > I believe I had good parents, but I still did lots of mistakes, costly mistakes that I wish I did not make. That's how it works. That's totally natural. It's human nature. You can't live your kids' lives for them, can't make their decisions for them. And sometimes kids end up better than their parents, despite their parents. Besides, we're not really talking about parents preaching to their kids, are we? Parents can say whatever they want to their kids in the privacy of their own homes. You seemed to be referring to public preaching.
  - numbers_guy 4y ago
    I mean, are you putting to question whether anything at all can be taught? If we can pass down knowledge, then what is so special about knowledge about human relationships in particular that cannot be passed down? I don't care what is natural. I care what results in better outcomes. I know I could have had better outcomes if I was given better advice. In this particular circumstance learning by mistakes is exactly what you should not aspire to do, because it is so costly. One bad mistake can derail your entire life.
    - lapcat 4y ago
      > I mean, are you putting to question whether anything at all can be taught? Teaching is not preaching. Facts are not values. > I know I could have had better outcomes if I was given better advice. This is what I dispute. You can give advice, but that doesn't mean anyone is going to take it. Especially not youths, who are omniscient, omnipotent, and immortal.
xyzelement 4y ago
We need preachers. Otherwise you are either completely devoid of advice or you only get advised by someone who is selling you something. EG: if I advocate marriage (and I do!) it's out of some small ounce of altruism. Economically I don't give half a shit about you and your life circumstances, I never met you and you have no impact on me. But - if I have a chance of sharing something wholeheartedly that has made my life better and I believe will make most people's lives better - I share that out of some pleasure of perhaps helping someone. That's what preaching is. When someone preaches to me, I may not listen but I appreciate what is driving them.
- lapcat 4y ago
  > Otherwise you are either completely devoid of advice or you only get advised by someone who is selling you something. Alternatively, maybe you don't need any unsolicited advice and can make your own decisions.
  - xyzelement 4y ago
    You make your own decisions. However empirically I found that the more convinced one is that they don't need advice the more badly they actually need it. Objectively, if I was deciding on whether I want to be married or not - I'd want to speak to a lot of old dudes who never married and those who did, and understand their experiences. And I'd love to have heard from someone who loved single life like I did but found even deeper meaning in marriage. Doesn't mean I would let them make the decision for me but I would want to know it. And if I was too dumb to ask those questions, I'd hope someone older and wiser would recognize that and help me
    - lapcat 4y ago
      > However empirically I found that the more convinced one is that they don't need advice the more badly they actually need it. Empirically, I found the opposite. ;-) > Objectively, if I was deciding on whether I want to be married or not You decide that subjectively, not objectively. It's actually pretty simple: be single for a while, and see how it feels. If it sucks, then try not to be single. If it's great, then continue. There's also the crucial matter of marriage being a mutual decision between two people, so one can't just decide to get married. I will offer some advice myself though FWIW: if you're not in love with someone, or they're not in love with you, then you probably shouldn't marry them.
worrycue 4y ago
> Eventually, almost everyone figures out for themselves what makes them happy and what doesn't. The approach my parents took to my upbringing - or lack thereof. Today at 42, I feel I have wasted most of my life and have achieved nothing worthwhile. Frankly, I don’t feel like living anymore. It just doesn’t seem worth it.
rayiner 4y ago
Human beings, especially young people, need social pressure to help them make good decisions. Do you think if you go to dinner and all your friends order a salad instead of the deep dish pizza, that doesn’t make a difference? The fact is that most people think they’re special, but they’re not. Modern American society gives people this illusion of choice, and they’re paralyzed by it. But for maybe 80% of people, it’s not going to get much better than getting married, having kids, and working to put food on the table. Socializing the next generation of workers is probably the most you’re cut out to do in this world.
- lapcat 4y ago
  > Human beings, especially young people, need social pressure to help them make good decisions. Also in many cases to make bad decisions. What if all your friends order the deep dish? > The fact is that most people think they’re special, but they’re not. True. IMO your advice and social pressure is not special. > But for maybe 80% of people, it’s not going to get much better than getting married, having kids, and working to put food on the table. My point is that those 80% can likely figure that out for themselves.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    > My point is that those 80% can likely figure that out for themselves. My observation is that they can’t, and make a lot of mistakes trying.

by lapcat 4y ago

ip26 4y ago

Keeping universal insight a secret and expecting everyone to figure it out for themselves seems oppressive to me. Suppose nobody told you how difficult single parenthood is out of consideration for all the single parents, and you therefore decided to adopt. You figure it out two years later. Years have gone by, and dating is now very difficult. Is this somehow progressive!?

lapcat 4y ago
> Keeping universal insight a secret Marriage is hardly a secret. > Suppose nobody told you how difficult single parenthood is I think you can guess. Anyway, that's not a secret either. People are aware of these things. The options are not sermonization or censorship; that's a false dichotomy.
- ip26 4y ago
  Sure, people guess. And I expect most still underestimate it by a country mile. It isn’t very openly discussed, because no one wants to impinge involuntarily single-parenthood households. Being vaguely aware that “single-parenthood is harder than two-parenthood” does not count as informed.
  - lapcat 4y ago
    > It isn’t very openly discussed We're openly discussing it right now. I'm truly baffled by the idea that it isn't openly discussed.
    - lodi 4y ago
      GP isn't saying that this topic is literally censored; he's saying that discussing it is taboo, and increasingly so.
      - lapcat 4y ago
        > he's saying that discussing it is taboo, and increasingly so. It's not though. There's no evidence of that. In fact, the very claim "no one wants to impinge involuntarily single-parenthood households" is itself an ironic admission that the difficulties of single-parent households are obvious to everyone.

numbers_guy 4y ago

Preachers, teachers, what's the difference, besides the connotation you want to attach? I believe I had good parents, but I still did lots of mistakes, costly mistakes that I wish I did not make. I am determined to teach all I can to my future children, if any, so that they don't have to learn it all by themselves again. I think it is only sensible that such teachings are spread society wide, for children who have no good parental figures.

lapcat 4y ago
> I believe I had good parents, but I still did lots of mistakes, costly mistakes that I wish I did not make. That's how it works. That's totally natural. It's human nature. You can't live your kids' lives for them, can't make their decisions for them. And sometimes kids end up better than their parents, despite their parents. Besides, we're not really talking about parents preaching to their kids, are we? Parents can say whatever they want to their kids in the privacy of their own homes. You seemed to be referring to public preaching.
- numbers_guy 4y ago
  I mean, are you putting to question whether anything at all can be taught? If we can pass down knowledge, then what is so special about knowledge about human relationships in particular that cannot be passed down? I don't care what is natural. I care what results in better outcomes. I know I could have had better outcomes if I was given better advice. In this particular circumstance learning by mistakes is exactly what you should not aspire to do, because it is so costly. One bad mistake can derail your entire life.
  - lapcat 4y ago
    > I mean, are you putting to question whether anything at all can be taught? Teaching is not preaching. Facts are not values. > I know I could have had better outcomes if I was given better advice. This is what I dispute. You can give advice, but that doesn't mean anyone is going to take it. Especially not youths, who are omniscient, omnipotent, and immortal.

xyzelement 4y ago

We need preachers. Otherwise you are either completely devoid of advice or you only get advised by someone who is selling you something. EG: if I advocate marriage (and I do!) it's out of some small ounce of altruism. Economically I don't give half a shit about you and your life circumstances, I never met you and you have no impact on me. But - if I have a chance of sharing something wholeheartedly that has made my life better and I believe will make most people's lives better - I share that out of some pleasure of perhaps helping someone. That's what preaching is. When someone preaches to me, I may not listen but I appreciate what is driving them.

lapcat 4y ago
> Otherwise you are either completely devoid of advice or you only get advised by someone who is selling you something. Alternatively, maybe you don't need any unsolicited advice and can make your own decisions.
- xyzelement 4y ago
  You make your own decisions. However empirically I found that the more convinced one is that they don't need advice the more badly they actually need it. Objectively, if I was deciding on whether I want to be married or not - I'd want to speak to a lot of old dudes who never married and those who did, and understand their experiences. And I'd love to have heard from someone who loved single life like I did but found even deeper meaning in marriage. Doesn't mean I would let them make the decision for me but I would want to know it. And if I was too dumb to ask those questions, I'd hope someone older and wiser would recognize that and help me
  - lapcat 4y ago
    > However empirically I found that the more convinced one is that they don't need advice the more badly they actually need it. Empirically, I found the opposite. ;-) > Objectively, if I was deciding on whether I want to be married or not You decide that subjectively, not objectively. It's actually pretty simple: be single for a while, and see how it feels. If it sucks, then try not to be single. If it's great, then continue. There's also the crucial matter of marriage being a mutual decision between two people, so one can't just decide to get married. I will offer some advice myself though FWIW: if you're not in love with someone, or they're not in love with you, then you probably shouldn't marry them.

worrycue 4y ago

> Eventually, almost everyone figures out for themselves what makes them happy and what doesn't. The approach my parents took to my upbringing - or lack thereof. Today at 42, I feel I have wasted most of my life and have achieved nothing worthwhile. Frankly, I don’t feel like living anymore. It just doesn’t seem worth it.

rayiner 4y ago

Human beings, especially young people, need social pressure to help them make good decisions. Do you think if you go to dinner and all your friends order a salad instead of the deep dish pizza, that doesn’t make a difference? The fact is that most people think they’re special, but they’re not. Modern American society gives people this illusion of choice, and they’re paralyzed by it. But for maybe 80% of people, it’s not going to get much better than getting married, having kids, and working to put food on the table. Socializing the next generation of workers is probably the most you’re cut out to do in this world.

lapcat 4y ago
> Human beings, especially young people, need social pressure to help them make good decisions. Also in many cases to make bad decisions. What if all your friends order the deep dish? > The fact is that most people think they’re special, but they’re not. True. IMO your advice and social pressure is not special. > But for maybe 80% of people, it’s not going to get much better than getting married, having kids, and working to put food on the table. My point is that those 80% can likely figure that out for themselves.
- rayiner 4y ago
  > My point is that those 80% can likely figure that out for themselves. My observation is that they can’t, and make a lot of mistakes trying.