7 ms·

I'm Latin American and very, very happy we have China as an alternative to America's tyrannical Monroe Doctrine. The demonization of China feels incredibly abs

I'm Latin American and very, very happy we have China as an alternative to America's tyrannical Monroe Doctrine. The demonization of China feels incredibly absurd, like when someone wearing an exceedingly ugly outfit, lacking self-awareness, tries to criticize someone else's fashion.

nebukhadnezzar 4y ago
Full mask off now, who would want to live in a democracy if you can live under the boot of an authoritarian narcissistic personality cult.
- dang 4y ago
  This sort of flamewar will get you banned here, regardless of how right you are or feel you are. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
- RedCondor 4y ago
  [flagged]
- brankoB 4y ago
  What democracy? Citizen interests haven't mattered for a looong time.
  - roca 4y ago
    Really? Why is Biden canceling student debt then?
    - krapp 4y ago
      He isn't. State governors sued him over the potential loss in tax revenue and SCOTUS is likely going to rule against it because the court is stacked with right-wingers. Also see gun laws being nowhere near as strict as people would like, and Roe v. Wade being repealed, with hard anti-abortion laws and bans being enacted in states where a majority of citizens are pro-choice. The politics of the general American populace is far to the left of what the spectrum of "left" to "right" within the government allows. The only citizens whose interests really matter in the US are conservatives, Christians and (of course, because the US is an oligarchy) billionaires. Everyone else is a serf who takes whatever scraps fall from the table. I mean, Americans are bringing child labor back. Do you think the majority of Americans support child labor? No. Does it matter? No, because even with a Democrat (ostensibly 'leftist' but, being pro-military, pro-cop and anti-labor nowhere near it in practice) in charge, American laws are moving further right than ever.
      - roca 4y ago
        So the Biden administration isn't really trying to cancel student debt? They are faking the attempt, secure in the knowledge that courts will strike it down? That sounds like an A-grade conspiracy theory to me. > The only citizens whose interests really matter in the US are conservatives, Christians and (of course, because the US is an oligarchy) billionaires. Everyone else is a serf who takes whatever scraps fall from the table. So all my non-conservative, non-Christian, non-billionaire Bay Area tech worker friends, who are doing very well for themselves, are "taking scraps"? Come on, that's ludicrous.
dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
Do you mean like you demonise the United States? Lacking self-awareness indeed.
albertopv 4y ago
And yet you are writing it on an american website and no one is censoring you. In China you have to be very careful of what you say and write, or you may just disappear from society, they don't need to kill anyone anymore, they even did it to former president, live. They remove you and that's it.
- RedCondor 4y ago
  In America, working class people get killed by cops and corporations with little recourse. In China, elites get disciplined by the party with little recourse. It's a matter of which class you see yourself in. >According to Harvard University’s large-scale 2003-2016 study tracking the evolution of public opinion via 32,000 individual respondents, at the time of the study’s conclusion “95.5 percent of respondents were either ‘relatively satisfied’ or ‘highly satisfied’ with Beijing.” https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-sur... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  - m00x 4y ago
    Working class people get killed in China too. My friend's wife's family completely disappeared because they said something bad about the local government on WeChat. Their house was empty when she went to check up on them (after COVID). Neighbors said the police came in and they haven't seen them since. She now blames herself for not bringing them to Canada. The reason the surveys are so high is because they fear it's a trap. If someone asks you if you like the government, your answer better be an outstanding yes.
    - RedCondor 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - roca 4y ago
        I know some Christians in NZ who are from mainland China. They have the same stories.
robomartin 4y ago
[flagged]
- dang 4y ago
  Please don't use HN for nationalistic or political flamewar, and please don't cross into personal attack. We ban accounts that do these things. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
- imiric 4y ago
  I think GP is delusional, but you're not seriously suggesting Latin American countries vilify the US for no reason, right? US interventions in Latin American affairs are well documented[1]. You can't just kick the can to Spain, when the US had a much more direct and recent involvement. It doesn't seem you learned much from your time there, as this history is discussed openly and known in detail, from school children to people who actually lived it. The resentment towards the US is very well deserved, in most cases. Regardless, this is not a thread about the US, so let's not feed GP's whataboutism, and keep acknowledging how evil China is. [1]: https://faculty.chass.ncsu.edu/slatta/hi216/hi453time.htm https://faculty.chass.ncsu.edu/slatta/hi216/hi453time.htm
  - robomartin 4y ago
    > you're not seriously suggesting Latin American countries vilify the US for no reason I am stating an absolute fact: In LATAM, blaming others for everything is a national sport. And the US is a favorite bad guy. I can't tell you how many times I have heard this in person in the context of social gatherings, local news and even government/political party communications. The point is they blame it all on the US. Always. I did not say the US and other nations have no fault at all. There are subtle and not-so-subtle dynamics at play here. It's funny how is never their fault. Ever. I guess these are all perfectly run nations and big-bad-USA comes in and fucks them up all the time. Otherwise, it's pink unicorns and bubble-gum for everyone. Right. World politics being what they are, yes, of course, countries will take advantage of each other when possible. There is no way to claim any nation is without fault in any comparison. Today, China is taking advantage of LATAM in more ways than one...and the people actually think it is a good thing. The other thing you have to remember is that LATAM governments have been corrupt forever. Entire generations of political families have enriched themselves and their extended circles at the expense of the people and countries. They make deals with countries like the US and international corporations and then turn-around and royally shaft the entire nation. The easiest way to explain things not working when you steal hundreds of millions of dollars and ruin the country is to blame others. Stories abound of LATAM governments inviting external investment only to later nationalize the companies boosted by this investment and kicking the investors out. They appoint brothers, cousins, family members, extended allies, military leaders to run and pillage the companies and enrich the ecosystem that supports them. Then they turn around and blame others, the US, the IMF, anyone. I mean, the military government of Argentina invented an entire war over islands nobody gave a shit about just to defocus from the horrors they created. So, yes, blaming the US for everything isn't only unfair, it's stupid. These countries would have done far better over time had they made an effort to create solid lasting partnerships with the US. Quite a few of these countries could have been manufacturing hubs for world products. That requires focus, hard work, dedication, stability and more. The US and Europe would have gladly outsourced such work to LATAM nations. It didn't happen because the corruption in these nations turned them into sad circus acts everyone took advantage of whenever they could. I know it hurts to put it this way, yet this is the truth. Trust is a delicate thing. Once you lose it, the only people who are going to engage with you are those who are going to ensure ROI by taking every possible advantage. And you have zero negotiating power. Once again, I point to what China is doing in LATAM. > You can't just kick the can to Spain, when the US had a much more direct and recent involvement. Not kicking that can so Spain at all. Spain's legacy is a culture of corruption and a range of social issues Gloria Alvarez discusses in detail in the video I posted. I have not been able to find a version in English, sorry.
mechanical_bear 4y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- dang 4y ago
  You can't attack other HN users based on where they're from or reside—no matter how wrong they are or you feel they are. Your other comment in this thread was even more egregious. Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35253829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35253829, and please don't post like this to HN.
- RedCondor 4y ago
  Generally speaking when someone asks that question it is with an eye to disqualifying a speaker they don't want to listen to, on the basis of ad-hominem. Latin America? "You're ignorant, you know nothing!" China? "You're under their sway!" America? "Hypocrite!" I tend to prefer to simply not allow the discussion to veer in that direction, and keep people guessing if they must.
  - mechanical_bear 4y ago
    It lets others understand perspective a bit better.
    - RedCondor 4y ago
      Well, my English is pretty good and I'm from Latin America. I think that ought to give you enough of an idea.
fortuna86 4y ago
Your account was created 15 days ago and is used exclusively for posting inflammatory political nonsense. Also, you do realize that China is the most hyper-capitalist country in the world, don't you?
- RedCondor 4y ago
  I'm just a communist programmer that hasn't been here for ages because I got bored of the hive-mind. Literally anything left-of-right-of-centre immediately gets flagged (if not outright banned by the mods), all in service of sheltering little liberal coder worker bees from scary labour propaganda. I came back for a bit to get the latest on ChatGPT, and then noticed that, unsurprisingly, this place is crawling with demented Chinaphobes spreading whatever third-hand hearsay they can find about China. I'm vastly more knowledgeable about this subject than probably everyone here, and have tested my resources against way more capable critics, so sharing some disruptive well-chosen resources here and there isn't too hard. The fact that the average stance here is something like "I'm not a Marxist, I don't like Marxism, I don't actually know much about Marxism, but I do know this: China isn't Marxist" is just hilarious to me.
  - fortuna86 4y ago
    I didn't ask who you claim to be, i'm pointing out what you are. If you actually care what China is, which it appears you don't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian_capitalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian_capitalism
    - RedCondor 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - fortuna86 4y ago
        "Your sources are compromised, here's a quote from Fidel Castro and a random blog titled "China Has Billionaires" that doesn't actually talk about China at all, just "US is bad China opposes US therefore..." Self-awareness is not your strong point. And your mix of conspiracy and partisan bile being challenged here is evidence this is a healthy online community, not the opposite. Perhaps you would feel better somewhere that confirms your beliefs instead of (rightly) mocks them.

nebukhadnezzar 4y ago

Full mask off now, who would want to live in a democracy if you can live under the boot of an authoritarian narcissistic personality cult.

dang 4y ago
This sort of flamewar will get you banned here, regardless of how right you are or feel you are. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
RedCondor 4y ago
[flagged]
brankoB 4y ago
What democracy? Citizen interests haven't mattered for a looong time.
- roca 4y ago
  Really? Why is Biden canceling student debt then?
  - krapp 4y ago
    He isn't. State governors sued him over the potential loss in tax revenue and SCOTUS is likely going to rule against it because the court is stacked with right-wingers. Also see gun laws being nowhere near as strict as people would like, and Roe v. Wade being repealed, with hard anti-abortion laws and bans being enacted in states where a majority of citizens are pro-choice. The politics of the general American populace is far to the left of what the spectrum of "left" to "right" within the government allows. The only citizens whose interests really matter in the US are conservatives, Christians and (of course, because the US is an oligarchy) billionaires. Everyone else is a serf who takes whatever scraps fall from the table. I mean, Americans are bringing child labor back. Do you think the majority of Americans support child labor? No. Does it matter? No, because even with a Democrat (ostensibly 'leftist' but, being pro-military, pro-cop and anti-labor nowhere near it in practice) in charge, American laws are moving further right than ever.
    - roca 4y ago
      So the Biden administration isn't really trying to cancel student debt? They are faking the attempt, secure in the knowledge that courts will strike it down? That sounds like an A-grade conspiracy theory to me. > The only citizens whose interests really matter in the US are conservatives, Christians and (of course, because the US is an oligarchy) billionaires. Everyone else is a serf who takes whatever scraps fall from the table. So all my non-conservative, non-Christian, non-billionaire Bay Area tech worker friends, who are doing very well for themselves, are "taking scraps"? Come on, that's ludicrous.

dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago

Do you mean like you demonise the United States? Lacking self-awareness indeed.

albertopv 4y ago

And yet you are writing it on an american website and no one is censoring you. In China you have to be very careful of what you say and write, or you may just disappear from society, they don't need to kill anyone anymore, they even did it to former president, live. They remove you and that's it.

RedCondor 4y ago
In America, working class people get killed by cops and corporations with little recourse. In China, elites get disciplined by the party with little recourse. It's a matter of which class you see yourself in. >According to Harvard University’s large-scale 2003-2016 study tracking the evolution of public opinion via 32,000 individual respondents, at the time of the study’s conclusion “95.5 percent of respondents were either ‘relatively satisfied’ or ‘highly satisfied’ with Beijing.” https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-sur... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- m00x 4y ago
  Working class people get killed in China too. My friend's wife's family completely disappeared because they said something bad about the local government on WeChat. Their house was empty when she went to check up on them (after COVID). Neighbors said the police came in and they haven't seen them since. She now blames herself for not bringing them to Canada. The reason the surveys are so high is because they fear it's a trap. If someone asks you if you like the government, your answer better be an outstanding yes.
  - RedCondor 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - roca 4y ago
      I know some Christians in NZ who are from mainland China. They have the same stories.

robomartin 4y ago

[flagged]

dang 4y ago
Please don't use HN for nationalistic or political flamewar, and please don't cross into personal attack. We ban accounts that do these things. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
imiric 4y ago
I think GP is delusional, but you're not seriously suggesting Latin American countries vilify the US for no reason, right? US interventions in Latin American affairs are well documented[1]. You can't just kick the can to Spain, when the US had a much more direct and recent involvement. It doesn't seem you learned much from your time there, as this history is discussed openly and known in detail, from school children to people who actually lived it. The resentment towards the US is very well deserved, in most cases. Regardless, this is not a thread about the US, so let's not feed GP's whataboutism, and keep acknowledging how evil China is. [1]: https://faculty.chass.ncsu.edu/slatta/hi216/hi453time.htm https://faculty.chass.ncsu.edu/slatta/hi216/hi453time.htm
- robomartin 4y ago
  > you're not seriously suggesting Latin American countries vilify the US for no reason I am stating an absolute fact: In LATAM, blaming others for everything is a national sport. And the US is a favorite bad guy. I can't tell you how many times I have heard this in person in the context of social gatherings, local news and even government/political party communications. The point is they blame it all on the US. Always. I did not say the US and other nations have no fault at all. There are subtle and not-so-subtle dynamics at play here. It's funny how is never their fault. Ever. I guess these are all perfectly run nations and big-bad-USA comes in and fucks them up all the time. Otherwise, it's pink unicorns and bubble-gum for everyone. Right. World politics being what they are, yes, of course, countries will take advantage of each other when possible. There is no way to claim any nation is without fault in any comparison. Today, China is taking advantage of LATAM in more ways than one...and the people actually think it is a good thing. The other thing you have to remember is that LATAM governments have been corrupt forever. Entire generations of political families have enriched themselves and their extended circles at the expense of the people and countries. They make deals with countries like the US and international corporations and then turn-around and royally shaft the entire nation. The easiest way to explain things not working when you steal hundreds of millions of dollars and ruin the country is to blame others. Stories abound of LATAM governments inviting external investment only to later nationalize the companies boosted by this investment and kicking the investors out. They appoint brothers, cousins, family members, extended allies, military leaders to run and pillage the companies and enrich the ecosystem that supports them. Then they turn around and blame others, the US, the IMF, anyone. I mean, the military government of Argentina invented an entire war over islands nobody gave a shit about just to defocus from the horrors they created. So, yes, blaming the US for everything isn't only unfair, it's stupid. These countries would have done far better over time had they made an effort to create solid lasting partnerships with the US. Quite a few of these countries could have been manufacturing hubs for world products. That requires focus, hard work, dedication, stability and more. The US and Europe would have gladly outsourced such work to LATAM nations. It didn't happen because the corruption in these nations turned them into sad circus acts everyone took advantage of whenever they could. I know it hurts to put it this way, yet this is the truth. Trust is a delicate thing. Once you lose it, the only people who are going to engage with you are those who are going to ensure ROI by taking every possible advantage. And you have zero negotiating power. Once again, I point to what China is doing in LATAM. > You can't just kick the can to Spain, when the US had a much more direct and recent involvement. Not kicking that can so Spain at all. Spain's legacy is a culture of corruption and a range of social issues Gloria Alvarez discusses in detail in the video I posted. I have not been able to find a version in English, sorry.

mechanical_bear 4y ago

[flagged]

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dang 4y ago
You can't attack other HN users based on where they're from or reside—no matter how wrong they are or you feel they are. Your other comment in this thread was even more egregious. Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35253829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35253829, and please don't post like this to HN.
RedCondor 4y ago
Generally speaking when someone asks that question it is with an eye to disqualifying a speaker they don't want to listen to, on the basis of ad-hominem. Latin America? "You're ignorant, you know nothing!" China? "You're under their sway!" America? "Hypocrite!" I tend to prefer to simply not allow the discussion to veer in that direction, and keep people guessing if they must.
- mechanical_bear 4y ago
  It lets others understand perspective a bit better.
  - RedCondor 4y ago
    Well, my English is pretty good and I'm from Latin America. I think that ought to give you enough of an idea.

fortuna86 4y ago

Your account was created 15 days ago and is used exclusively for posting inflammatory political nonsense. Also, you do realize that China is the most hyper-capitalist country in the world, don't you?

RedCondor 4y ago
I'm just a communist programmer that hasn't been here for ages because I got bored of the hive-mind. Literally anything left-of-right-of-centre immediately gets flagged (if not outright banned by the mods), all in service of sheltering little liberal coder worker bees from scary labour propaganda. I came back for a bit to get the latest on ChatGPT, and then noticed that, unsurprisingly, this place is crawling with demented Chinaphobes spreading whatever third-hand hearsay they can find about China. I'm vastly more knowledgeable about this subject than probably everyone here, and have tested my resources against way more capable critics, so sharing some disruptive well-chosen resources here and there isn't too hard. The fact that the average stance here is something like "I'm not a Marxist, I don't like Marxism, I don't actually know much about Marxism, but I do know this: China isn't Marxist" is just hilarious to me.
- fortuna86 4y ago
  I didn't ask who you claim to be, i'm pointing out what you are. If you actually care what China is, which it appears you don't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian_capitalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian_capitalism
  - RedCondor 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - fortuna86 4y ago
      "Your sources are compromised, here's a quote from Fidel Castro and a random blog titled "China Has Billionaires" that doesn't actually talk about China at all, just "US is bad China opposes US therefore..." Self-awareness is not your strong point. And your mix of conspiracy and partisan bile being challenged here is evidence this is a healthy online community, not the opposite. Perhaps you would feel better somewhere that confirms your beliefs instead of (rightly) mocks them.