5 ms·

Club-Wielding Ancestors: Myth or Reality?

25 points by Petiver 4y ago

hardlianotion 4y ago
Given the title, I have to assume it’s a myth.
- icegreentea2 4y ago
  Wrong guess: > Combining those lines of evidence, I’m convinced the earliest modern humans likely wielded clubs—probably more often for conflicts than hunting. > Returning to the game Prehistorik, we can be sure that no human ever clubbed a dinosaur, but past people probably whacked creatures that existed over the past 300,000 years. The wooden club in their hands is not a myth. However, it may have been a much more sophisticated weapon than most people imagine.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
    Considering that Michael Moore reports that the scene from "Roger & Me" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_%26_Me https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_%26_Me) that got the most hate mail was when the unemployed auto worker in Flint, MI clubbed a rabbit to death before skinning and cooking it, I would be surprised if it were otherwise.
Y_Y 4y ago
I had a couple of club-wielding grandparents
twic 4y ago
I haven't done much melée combat, but i would have thought that a stabbing spear was preferable to a club in any situation. You can have more range, you don't have to give up your guard to wind up a blow, and opponents are more likely to be discouraged by bleeding than bruises. Given that we developed flint-tipped spears half a million years ago, would cavemen have used clubs in any but the most desperate situations?
- Retric 4y ago
  Which is better really depends on a bunch of factors, but people really did hunt with thrown clubs/boomerangs and similar weapons. The Māori used a lot of club like weapons up until fairly recently: https://www.new-guinea-tribal-arts.com/maori-weapons/ https://www.new-guinea-tribal-arts.com/maori-weapons/ Clubs wouldn’t have damaged pelts, and take less effort to create and maintain. Rather hard to clear underbrush with a stabbing spear.
- icegreentea2 4y ago
  Spears can be more unwieldy in close/cluttered terrain (ie forests). Assuming weapon and shield combat, clubs might be able to deliver more power through a shield (staggering or fatiguing the defender) than a spear thrust. The reach advantage of spears are also partially eroded once you consider a shield as well. I think it's very telling that nearly all of the examples given of "modern" hunter gathers have them using both spear and clubs. I think the reality is that spears would have likely been preferred, but club/maces retaining some utility. In addition, the very fact that clubs had so many disadvantages would make it's use a bit of a status symbol too.
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  This combination of a spear and a club was apparently very useful even against iron-clad French knights. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goedendag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goedendag
hdivider 4y ago
I wonder if the story of Heracles is our origin for the ancient-club-warrior concept. https://www.joshobrouwers.com/articles/club-heracles-recognizing-hero-ancient-art/ https://www.joshobrouwers.com/articles/club-heracles-recogni... Though naturally, the ancients didn't see Heracles as some primitive brute.
eutropia 4y ago
I read that our (humanity's) wrist flexibility co-evolved with the presence of clubs and thrown stones, or rather was selected for due to the ability to easily swing clubs and and throw objects versus other hominids without that flexibility: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1571064/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1571064/ An interesting theory...
swamp40 4y ago
Look at this tomahawk made from a bison jaw. Simple but brutal. https://twitter.com/Arting_2D/status/1499311367060594689/photo/1 https://twitter.com/Arting_2D/status/1499311367060594689/pho...
- NoZebra120vClip 4y ago
  Judges 15:15-16 (NABRE): 15 Coming upon the fresh jawbone of an ass, he reached out, grasped it, and with it killed a thousand men. 16 Then Samson said, “With the jawbone of an ass I have piled them in a heap; With the jawbone of an ass I have slain a thousand men.” https://bible.usccb.org/bible/judges/15 https://bible.usccb.org/bible/judges/15
gus_massa 4y ago
> Moreover, many traditional wars were not simply about defeating the enemy. They have been an opportunity to demonstrate courage and heroism. A brave warrior was not one who cowardly shot from a distance but one who bested the enemy in hand-to-hand combat. IIRC in a video about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Isandlwana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Isandlwana the video claimed that rifle gave a x10 advantage (that was not enough for the British in that battle). Honor is nice, but I'd take x10 every time.
- Iolaum 4y ago
  Reminds me of the classic Indiana Jones vs Arab swordsman scene :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YyBtMxZgQs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YyBtMxZgQs
  - wahern 4y ago
    The new classic scene: https://youtu.be/90P4xDwLpGo?t=110 https://youtu.be/90P4xDwLpGo?t=110 I wonder if more people have seen the above scene as have seen the original. If not, I wonder if and when the numbers will cross. My kids have seen both, but they probably don't remember seeing the original as they were quite young. I try to force nostalgia film and television on them, but it's hit or miss, and now that they can fight back they won't let me play Indiana Jones films, but are okay with IASIP. (I'd prefer Indiana Jones as it requires less censoring.)
    - greggsy 4y ago
      I’m not sure if you’re trying to say that more people have watched a particular episode of IASIP, or a classic action adventure movie from a very popular film franchise?
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - wahern 4y ago
        Yes, that's the question. It may seem obvious that it would be the latter, but Raiders of the Lost Ark is nearly 42 years old at this point. Today do you think more people have seen Citizen Kane (1941) or Bambi (1942) as Raiders of the Lost Ark (1981)? Granted, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia isn't as popular, and not everyone who has seen one IASIP episode will have seen them all, but the target audience is similar.

25 points by Petiver 4y ago

hardlianotion 4y ago

Given the title, I have to assume it’s a myth.

icegreentea2 4y ago
Wrong guess: > Combining those lines of evidence, I’m convinced the earliest modern humans likely wielded clubs—probably more often for conflicts than hunting. > Returning to the game Prehistorik, we can be sure that no human ever clubbed a dinosaur, but past people probably whacked creatures that existed over the past 300,000 years. The wooden club in their hands is not a myth. However, it may have been a much more sophisticated weapon than most people imagine.
- HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
  Considering that Michael Moore reports that the scene from "Roger & Me" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_%26_Me https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_%26_Me) that got the most hate mail was when the unemployed auto worker in Flint, MI clubbed a rabbit to death before skinning and cooking it, I would be surprised if it were otherwise.

Y_Y 4y ago

I had a couple of club-wielding grandparents

twic 4y ago

I haven't done much melée combat, but i would have thought that a stabbing spear was preferable to a club in any situation. You can have more range, you don't have to give up your guard to wind up a blow, and opponents are more likely to be discouraged by bleeding than bruises. Given that we developed flint-tipped spears half a million years ago, would cavemen have used clubs in any but the most desperate situations?

Retric 4y ago
Which is better really depends on a bunch of factors, but people really did hunt with thrown clubs/boomerangs and similar weapons. The Māori used a lot of club like weapons up until fairly recently: https://www.new-guinea-tribal-arts.com/maori-weapons/ https://www.new-guinea-tribal-arts.com/maori-weapons/ Clubs wouldn’t have damaged pelts, and take less effort to create and maintain. Rather hard to clear underbrush with a stabbing spear.
icegreentea2 4y ago
Spears can be more unwieldy in close/cluttered terrain (ie forests). Assuming weapon and shield combat, clubs might be able to deliver more power through a shield (staggering or fatiguing the defender) than a spear thrust. The reach advantage of spears are also partially eroded once you consider a shield as well. I think it's very telling that nearly all of the examples given of "modern" hunter gathers have them using both spear and clubs. I think the reality is that spears would have likely been preferred, but club/maces retaining some utility. In addition, the very fact that clubs had so many disadvantages would make it's use a bit of a status symbol too.
inglor_cz 4y ago
This combination of a spear and a club was apparently very useful even against iron-clad French knights. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goedendag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goedendag

hdivider 4y ago

I wonder if the story of Heracles is our origin for the ancient-club-warrior concept. https://www.joshobrouwers.com/articles/club-heracles-recognizing-hero-ancient-art/ https://www.joshobrouwers.com/articles/club-heracles-recogni... Though naturally, the ancients didn't see Heracles as some primitive brute.

eutropia 4y ago

I read that our (humanity's) wrist flexibility co-evolved with the presence of clubs and thrown stones, or rather was selected for due to the ability to easily swing clubs and and throw objects versus other hominids without that flexibility: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1571064/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1571064/ An interesting theory...

swamp40 4y ago

Look at this tomahawk made from a bison jaw. Simple but brutal. https://twitter.com/Arting_2D/status/1499311367060594689/photo/1 https://twitter.com/Arting_2D/status/1499311367060594689/pho...

NoZebra120vClip 4y ago
Judges 15:15-16 (NABRE): 15 Coming upon the fresh jawbone of an ass, he reached out, grasped it, and with it killed a thousand men. 16 Then Samson said, “With the jawbone of an ass I have piled them in a heap; With the jawbone of an ass I have slain a thousand men.” https://bible.usccb.org/bible/judges/15 https://bible.usccb.org/bible/judges/15

gus_massa 4y ago

> Moreover, many traditional wars were not simply about defeating the enemy. They have been an opportunity to demonstrate courage and heroism. A brave warrior was not one who cowardly shot from a distance but one who bested the enemy in hand-to-hand combat. IIRC in a video about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Isandlwana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Isandlwana the video claimed that rifle gave a x10 advantage (that was not enough for the British in that battle). Honor is nice, but I'd take x10 every time.

Iolaum 4y ago
Reminds me of the classic Indiana Jones vs Arab swordsman scene :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YyBtMxZgQs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YyBtMxZgQs
- wahern 4y ago
  The new classic scene: https://youtu.be/90P4xDwLpGo?t=110 https://youtu.be/90P4xDwLpGo?t=110 I wonder if more people have seen the above scene as have seen the original. If not, I wonder if and when the numbers will cross. My kids have seen both, but they probably don't remember seeing the original as they were quite young. I try to force nostalgia film and television on them, but it's hit or miss, and now that they can fight back they won't let me play Indiana Jones films, but are okay with IASIP. (I'd prefer Indiana Jones as it requires less censoring.)
  - greggsy 4y ago
    I’m not sure if you’re trying to say that more people have watched a particular episode of IASIP, or a classic action adventure movie from a very popular film franchise?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - wahern 4y ago
      Yes, that's the question. It may seem obvious that it would be the latter, but Raiders of the Lost Ark is nearly 42 years old at this point. Today do you think more people have seen Citizen Kane (1941) or Bambi (1942) as Raiders of the Lost Ark (1981)? Granted, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia isn't as popular, and not everyone who has seen one IASIP episode will have seen them all, but the target audience is similar.